Said it a dozen times. If you have to reload, it's no longer self defense it's a fire fight. If that's the case, you're in deep excrement, doesn't matter if you've got a J frame or a Glock with a 50 round drum. Especially if you've got a 50 round drum.
Interesting questin: How many rounds?
- Thread starter Protected One
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OP
Protected One
Member
Silvergoose
Member
I think carrying five or six rounds is fine. To carry more than that can put you in bad light if you were ever forced to draw and fire your weapon. Carrying more than one weapon,IMO, could indicate to an attorney that you were looking for a fight.
I think we should get over the Zombie B.S. and get on with life. Carry a firearm with the hope you never fire it. Go to the range, practice and shoot as much as you want. Be prepared to defend yourself and your loved ones, the rest will have to take the responsiblity to do the same.
If it is a home invasion I will stop the threat!
Good Luck
I think we should get over the Zombie B.S. and get on with life. Carry a firearm with the hope you never fire it. Go to the range, practice and shoot as much as you want. Be prepared to defend yourself and your loved ones, the rest will have to take the responsiblity to do the same.
If it is a home invasion I will stop the threat!
Good Luck
Hodgin
US Veteran
I agree with what he says about 5 rounds handling the vast majority of concealed carry situations. Of course, more is preferred to less up to a point beyond 5, but 5 gets all but the most extreme. If it takes more than 5 then the BG probably will win and if there's several BGs with guns I'm not likely to get off more than 5 anyway.
Having said that, I carry a 9c with 13 rds or a BG 380 with 7 rds. I do occasionally carry an additional mag with my BG but not all the time.
Home defense is a different situation. I like to have more than 5 rounds for that. More likely to be more than one invader and shooting distances are likely to be further away. I used a 5 shoot revolver with speed loader and 12 ga for home defense for many years.
Having said that, I carry a 9c with 13 rds or a BG 380 with 7 rds. I do occasionally carry an additional mag with my BG but not all the time.
Home defense is a different situation. I like to have more than 5 rounds for that. More likely to be more than one invader and shooting distances are likely to be further away. I used a 5 shoot revolver with speed loader and 12 ga for home defense for many years.
kozmic
Member
Before the safe act in NY, I generally carried 10+1 most of the time. That was the NY limit beforehand. Afterwards I started to carry smaller lower cap guns (J frames, .45 XDs, 9mm Shield, Ultra-sized Kimber, etc.) and extra mags, strips or speed loaders. I also started to carry a bug gun more often. So, I typically had more rounds on me after the safe act than before!
I was at a seminar regarding the legality of handgun use in defense. One of the presenters, a county deputy, stated that the "hit" rate for LEOs is roughly 20%. I'm not sure if that is a local or national stat, but it got me to thinking that a J frame in the hands of a cop is likely to only have one hit (statistically speaking). I don't know how that knowledge will affect my carry practices, but it is an interesting fact.
It should be noted that a NY judge threw out andy's 7 round edict and NYers are now back to the the (still unconstitutional) 10+1 round mag limit.
I was at a seminar regarding the legality of handgun use in defense. One of the presenters, a county deputy, stated that the "hit" rate for LEOs is roughly 20%. I'm not sure if that is a local or national stat, but it got me to thinking that a J frame in the hands of a cop is likely to only have one hit (statistically speaking). I don't know how that knowledge will affect my carry practices, but it is an interesting fact.
It should be noted that a NY judge threw out andy's 7 round edict and NYers are now back to the the (still unconstitutional) 10+1 round mag limit.
Hock
Member
For starters, I don't care what an attorney thinks about how much I carry because they are going to try to make me look like the villain looking for a fight just because I carry a gun.
Second, missing with many rounds can be effective as well. Effective meaning that the perpetrator(s) decide that you are to much of a hassle and they don't want to die. Its called violence of action. The woman in this thread demonstrates that very nicely: http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/360543-how-brazen-thieves-becoming.html
She was confronted with 3 thugs breaking into her home. She fired multiple shots, no hits, and 2 of them ran away. The 3rd pulled his gun and went to go back in, she fired more shots. If she would have been limited to just 5 rounds it's very likely that her and her children would be dead. Now I know this happened at a house but it could also happen other places as well.
Finally, I always like to have, "It's better to have and never need than need and not have."
Second, missing with many rounds can be effective as well. Effective meaning that the perpetrator(s) decide that you are to much of a hassle and they don't want to die. Its called violence of action. The woman in this thread demonstrates that very nicely: http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/360543-how-brazen-thieves-becoming.html
She was confronted with 3 thugs breaking into her home. She fired multiple shots, no hits, and 2 of them ran away. The 3rd pulled his gun and went to go back in, she fired more shots. If she would have been limited to just 5 rounds it's very likely that her and her children would be dead. Now I know this happened at a house but it could also happen other places as well.
Finally, I always like to have, "It's better to have and never need than need and not have."
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Consider me well and truly rebuked. Second childhood.
Retired LTC USAR
US Veteran
So if I'm carrying my 4006, I don't have to take my bag with the exta 40 magazines that I have for it then?
speedyquad
Member
my 40c holds 10+1. i generally have the 2nd mag loaded and a full box of 50 in the car. not because i need them, but because my kids stay at my mothers house while i work and that just happens to be where the range is. i do this so i always have a box available in case i make a spur of the moment decision to shoot a little.
when not in the vehicle, it is just the 10+1.
when not in the vehicle, it is just the 10+1.
CommonCents
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statistically a handful is plenty but if people are comfortable w/ carrying more, why not? What is the downside to carrying more if they want to and decide to? NONE.
Even for the slimmer single stacks, its easy to carry another mag if you choose to do so. Thinking in an initial encounter you have a few rounds to get you to a safer place where you could have time to reload.
The video is kinda dumb. It just points out that stats say 5 is enough, but he gives no good reason or opportunity cost to carry more if you wish. MOOT point video.
Even for the slimmer single stacks, its easy to carry another mag if you choose to do so. Thinking in an initial encounter you have a few rounds to get you to a safer place where you could have time to reload.
The video is kinda dumb. It just points out that stats say 5 is enough, but he gives no good reason or opportunity cost to carry more if you wish. MOOT point video.
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BCDWYO
Member
If we are going by statistical chances of needing to fire our sidearm in self defense, the argument could easily be made that the odds are so slim that we don't NEED to carry at all, so I throw that argument out. Yes, scenarios where you will need a reload are remote, but so are scenarios where you will even need a gun. If you ever do need to fire, then the chances that you might need a reload just went up DRAMATICALLY!
I think an extra mag or two is only common sense if you are carrying a semiauto. Magazines do fail. With revolvers it is pretty easy to at least carry a speed strip if not a speedloader or extra moonclip.
Bottom line, I can't think of a legitimate downside of carrying extra ammo.
I think an extra mag or two is only common sense if you are carrying a semiauto. Magazines do fail. With revolvers it is pretty easy to at least carry a speed strip if not a speedloader or extra moonclip.
Bottom line, I can't think of a legitimate downside of carrying extra ammo.
sac-gunslinger
Member
The old Safariland double-dump box (78H/78HV) came with a plastic liner the removal of which allowed you to carry six rounds of 44 in the pouch. Or you could remove the liner and stuff 11 rounds of 357 Magnum in each pouch. That would mean you had 40 rounds on your belt. Unless, of course, you were carrying a Shoemaker speedloader pouch with three speedloaders for 46 rounds. Man, that belt was heavy. But reassuring when you were miles away from anybody else.
Why, yes, I do still have a couple.
sac-gunslinger
Member
No, I think 15 extra magazines ought to be enough.
It all depends on what enables you to feel comfortable while out in the big bad world.
In the service revolver days almost everyone out on the street had a box of 50 rounds in their briefcase.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I actually want answers, but it's inevitable that the cute sayings are going to show up.
You're right Protected One and I wasn't trying to rebuke you shouldazagged, or anyone else. I was actually trying to nudge things back on target because I think it can be an interesting discussion.
The answer for me is simple and not based on numbers. A revolver is fine with whatever it holds as long as the shooter has practiced.
A semi-auto, regardless of magazine capacity, requires a back up mag. Without that, it could malfunction and then there is no way to get back in the fight. While it is unlikely anyone will need the extra rounds, or even to get back in the fight after the first shot, the ability to maintain fighting ability is a requirement.
This may have worked a time or two, but is a very poor method of thinking. No instructor worth their salt would ever teach that. No defender that really wants to win will ever think that.
This is one example of how a woman got lucky. She shouldn't have missed at first.
OP
Protected One
Member
Thanks for the attempted nudge. An interesting discussion is what I was hoping for. Not expecting anyone to remove rounds from their 5+ capacity mags or leave their spares at home. But I was hoping that some would see the logic that separates what one chooses to carry, from what one is realistically likelly to need.
For the record: I carry 13+1 with a spare mag in the car.
Agree. 100%
Her husband had just given her the gun in the last two weeks, and I doubt she did ANY practicing. Still, the flaw in her logic is firing shots to let them know she did in fact have a gun. The rounds should have been fired center mass...I think that would have got the same point across. In my opinion all she did is set herself up for a future break in by the same thugs - only THIS time, all 3 will be armed!
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This subject is rather like the "caliber debate" in that there's any number of answers, and any of them can be right, wrong or irrelevant depending on the situational context.
I often carry a 5-shot .38 Spl snub as a retirement weapon. Why? They're handy, light and convenient for those times when I don't care to belt on a large, heavier handgun. I still train, practice & qualify with them, too.
Would I carry one as a primary service weapon? Nope. But I would carry one as a secondary/backup weapon (and as an off-duty/retirement/LEOSA weapon).
I've known folks involved in shootings. The most common "realization" I've heard expressed? Aimed fire can become very critical (regardless of available capacity, but if the realization comes later in the shooting incident, having enough remaining capacity to start making aimed shots is a good thing).
I can think of a home invasion where one of the family members exhausted a 5-shot revolver and died.
I can think of a cop who successfully used a 5-shot revolver to stop 3 armed robbery suspects.
I can think of a cop who died holding a 5-shot revolver when intervening during an armed robbery.
I can think of many examples offered during a couple of different training classes (street tactics & LEOKA) where 5-shot revolvers successfully saved the lives of an impressive number of cops, both on & off-duty.
My thoughts on capacity have obviously been influenced by my career, including my involvement as a firearms instructor. I carried a 6-shot service revolver as a young cop, and either a 6 or 5-shot revolver off-duty, or my Colt Commander (7-rd mags back then).
I carried a variety of issued pistols over the years, starting with 14, 15 & then 12-rd 9mm's, followed by 12 & 9-rd .40's and then 8 & 7-rd .45's at the end of my career. If I were going to choose a new service weapon today, it would probably be a 9mm, in whatever capacity configuration was available at the moment. I tend to like the recoil management & controllability of the 9's ... and if it had been permitted, I'd have finished my career carrying one of my last issued 6906 12-rd guns.
Ammunition capacity can be a good thing, but it oughtn't be considered as a substitute for mindset, skillset or the proper understanding and use of awareness & tactics.
I've sometimes suspected that some folks tried (intentionally or unintentionally) to lean on "capacity" the same way they leaned on "better bullets" or bigger calibers in lieu of emphasis on personal skillsets, perseverance in training, frequency of proper practice and cultivating an optimal mindset for facing threats and potential deadly force encounters.
A rabbit's foot just takes up space in your pocket, and a handgun on the hip (or in the pocket) ought not to be a talisman.
Avoidance is a good thing, but denial isn't such a good thing.
I certainly don't have the "right" answer for any particular situation or person, and the "right" answer for me can vary from one day or anticipated situation or set of potential circumstances to the next. Probably why I still have a safe full of handguns and keep running through them on the range.
I'll offer this and stop the rambling ...
Regardless of what handgun I've carried on or off-duty (caliber or capacity) I never considered myself well-armed, but just armed. It was still just a handgun, after all. When I was on-duty and knew enough in advance of a serious deadly threat, the shotgun came out of the car ... (and if we'd had the right locking trunk racks for my plainclothes car before I retired, I'd have added a rifle to the shotgun I carried in the trunk).
I often carry a 5-shot .38 Spl snub as a retirement weapon. Why? They're handy, light and convenient for those times when I don't care to belt on a large, heavier handgun. I still train, practice & qualify with them, too.
Would I carry one as a primary service weapon? Nope. But I would carry one as a secondary/backup weapon (and as an off-duty/retirement/LEOSA weapon).
I've known folks involved in shootings. The most common "realization" I've heard expressed? Aimed fire can become very critical (regardless of available capacity, but if the realization comes later in the shooting incident, having enough remaining capacity to start making aimed shots is a good thing).
I can think of a home invasion where one of the family members exhausted a 5-shot revolver and died.
I can think of a cop who successfully used a 5-shot revolver to stop 3 armed robbery suspects.
I can think of a cop who died holding a 5-shot revolver when intervening during an armed robbery.
I can think of many examples offered during a couple of different training classes (street tactics & LEOKA) where 5-shot revolvers successfully saved the lives of an impressive number of cops, both on & off-duty.
My thoughts on capacity have obviously been influenced by my career, including my involvement as a firearms instructor. I carried a 6-shot service revolver as a young cop, and either a 6 or 5-shot revolver off-duty, or my Colt Commander (7-rd mags back then).
I carried a variety of issued pistols over the years, starting with 14, 15 & then 12-rd 9mm's, followed by 12 & 9-rd .40's and then 8 & 7-rd .45's at the end of my career. If I were going to choose a new service weapon today, it would probably be a 9mm, in whatever capacity configuration was available at the moment. I tend to like the recoil management & controllability of the 9's ... and if it had been permitted, I'd have finished my career carrying one of my last issued 6906 12-rd guns.
Ammunition capacity can be a good thing, but it oughtn't be considered as a substitute for mindset, skillset or the proper understanding and use of awareness & tactics.
I've sometimes suspected that some folks tried (intentionally or unintentionally) to lean on "capacity" the same way they leaned on "better bullets" or bigger calibers in lieu of emphasis on personal skillsets, perseverance in training, frequency of proper practice and cultivating an optimal mindset for facing threats and potential deadly force encounters.
A rabbit's foot just takes up space in your pocket, and a handgun on the hip (or in the pocket) ought not to be a talisman.
Avoidance is a good thing, but denial isn't such a good thing.
I certainly don't have the "right" answer for any particular situation or person, and the "right" answer for me can vary from one day or anticipated situation or set of potential circumstances to the next. Probably why I still have a safe full of handguns and keep running through them on the range.
I'll offer this and stop the rambling ...
Regardless of what handgun I've carried on or off-duty (caliber or capacity) I never considered myself well-armed, but just armed. It was still just a handgun, after all. When I was on-duty and knew enough in advance of a serious deadly threat, the shotgun came out of the car ... (and if we'd had the right locking trunk racks for my plainclothes car before I retired, I'd have added a rifle to the shotgun I carried in the trunk).
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ChattanoogaPhil
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The odds that the guy offered in the vid are misleading. If you are a street corner drug dealer you're a bunch more likely to be involved in a shooting than average law abiding Joe not involved in criminal or other high risk activities. The shootings around here are generally confined to certain areas. Stay away from those areas and you are safer carrying nothing than wandering around in those areas with 100rds.
IMO, carrying your head on straight is generally more effective than carrying more ammo in the life of average Joe.
5 shot revolver and LCP.
IMO, carrying your head on straight is generally more effective than carrying more ammo in the life of average Joe.
5 shot revolver and LCP.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I think this is more important than any discussion of how many rounds.
I don't have statistics to back this up, but I'll bet those who carry are less likely to get in situations where they need to defend themselves.
SgtLumpy
Member
I've always hoped that was the case. Something tells me that's the way you teach your classes.
"I'm armed and this situation doesn't look great. The best thing I can do is to leave/not go in"
That's much better than -
"I'm not afraid of nutin'. I got a gun with 50 rounds. Waitress, bring me another beer"
Sgt Lumpy
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