Interesting story about police m&p pistol contract

this sounds more like some kind of a kick back scheme .. why else the three suspended police officials .. if this was due to a round some how being flipped .. why were they suspended ?? the whole contract was only worth 286k and that was before the turned in guns were taken into account so cash value was much less .. possibly under 100k ..

so will these pistols be on the market soon under used police auctions ?? might be a good price for some ..
 
Personally, I think this is why Mulder and Scully are coming back, to get to the bottom of this.

The truth is out there...
 
Until you have experienced that actually occurrence, you cannot really appreciate how important that anything that you can do to disable your weapon can be.

I stress this reality to all of the students that I teach in concealed carry classes also.

One last point on the dependability of retention holsters. When you have a few moments, go on YouTube and enter "retention holster review" and see how many videos explain in great detail on how to release a pistol from every single type of retention holster made.

Don't think for a moment that the many of the BGs haven't done the same.

Two people at conversation distance in a room. One of them is openly carrying a handgun in a retention holster.

Who's armed?

Both of them.

That was a lesson I gathered ten seconds into the first call during my ride along last year. Dispatch put out a description of a drunk dude passed out in someone's lawn. Dispatch didn't say Mr Drunk Dude was 6'9 and 250lbs .

The nearest backup unit was maybe six minutes away at the fastest. Just in time to call in the coroner if Mr Dude went for the officers Glock. I suddenly had a newfound appreciation for my 3rd Gens mag disconnect safeties after that shift.
 
ATF, it's a 90MB video file I don't think my email will allow me to send a file that big....

My son was shooting and it happened to him, I was videoing.....this was during a stage at an IDPA shoot....

I immediately assumed it was some kind of user error, but I loaded the magazine and I've never before in 30 yrs loaded a round backwards into a mag...still most likely explanation is a user error, so I blew it off until I saw the post here....

Watching the video right now...

Shooter shoots first magazine dry, inserts new mag, drops slide, fires, bang, then nothing, I then see him rack the slide and you can here the round eject and hit the ground, then he still can't clear it and drops the magazine, reloads fresh mag and completes stage without incident.

So I was wrong, it was actually the third round from the top of the fresh mag, round one was fired, round two was ejected by a manual racking of the slide, the then top round, round three was in backwards, and the magazine it was in was dropped from chest height to the ground...

That magazine was found on the ground with the top round in it backwards.

If I can ever get it to happen again I will note which magazine and then work on re producing it....right now I'm not sure which of six magazines was being used...

I'm rather firm in my belief that the round was not loaded backwards, when, how it got turned around I'm not convinced on any scenario for sure....
 
Great thing about the Internet, clowns that weren't there, with no first hand knowledge of situation or those involved can figure it all out...AND claim you're not a man...lol

How much did they test their theory?? Took me less than ten minutes to get a bullet to flip in the magazine after sticking the follower with an Allen wrench.......

The original mag was a 17 round mag loaded to division capacity of ten, reloads with 124 gr flat points loaded to COAL of 1.075, flat points with a relatively short overall length left plenty of room to turn a cartridge around inside the magazine....

Sticking the follower, stripping one round, the fired shot, then another round the hand racked cartridge, left a ton of room to flip a cartridge, wether the hand racking flipped it or the impact with the ground when the mag fell I don't know, but I'd be far from saying that it couldn't happen...
 
So . . .
Mag with 10 rounds inserted into a Glock. Spring and follower are exerting enough upward pressure to allow slide to strip and load top round into chamber.

The gun fires. The slide retracts. The first case ejects. The second round rises, is at least partially stripped from the mag, but jams. Working the slide clears that cartridge but the next cartridge cannot be stripped from the mag. Mag is discarded. New mag loaded and back to normal firing.

On inspection of dropped mag, top round is in the mag backwards, but under pressure from follower, not rattling around above a stuck follower with cartridges falling out of the mag.

So, at what point did the third cartridge turn 180 degrees if not initially loaded backwards?

Not when the first round was stripped under sufficient follower pressure. The stack under pressure would not allow the third round to turn.

Not when the second round with enough upward follower pressure to be stripped out of the mag moved forward although it did jam. No room in the mag for any cartridge to turn.

So if the stuck follower is the explanation for this stoppage, it appears the follower must have stuck while the second round stripped from the mag under follower pressure was causing the stoppage. IOW, with about the width of one cartridge above a properly loaded third round (now in second position) but no pressure from underneath because of a stuck follower, the third round jumped up its full cartridge length (roughly three times the width of a cartridge) under the feed lips, turned around vertically 180 degrees and fell back down into the mag. At some point, whether through racking the slide or dropping the mag, the follower was probably jostled loose, and upon subsequent inspection the top round in the mag, under follower pressure, was noted to have turned around backwards.

I admit a cartridge can turn 180 degrees vertically in a mag with a stuck follower and no spring pressure from below, BUT ONLY WHEN there is enough room above it to do so. In order to be stripped by the slide from a mag, a cartridge must be at the top of the mag under pressure and properly oriented forward. When the follower sticks after two (or any number of) rounds have been fired, there is only ONE cartridge width above the top unpressurized round with the mag in the gun. IOW, the slide strips rounds from the mag until there is no round riding at the top to be stripped. That is only a one-round deficit at the top of the mag--not two or three.

Out of the gun, with only one cartridge in the mag and the spring removed, I held the follower in place from the bottom. Leaving enough space above one cartridge resting on the follower to represent one missing (stripped) round above it, it was not possible to get a 180 degree rotation because the feed lips prevent it. This is two cartridge widths. I lowered the follower until I could rattle the one cartridge around to being backwards. This was three cartridge widths. It took A LOT of rattling, and of course there were no other loose rounds below this one cartridge also moving and taking up vertical space.

This is a manufactured, controlled experiment that absolutely proves a round can turn around in a mag under conditions not possible to duplicate with the mag in a gun that has just stripped the top two rounds out the same mag. You have to have at least two cartridge widths above a third round before it can turn in a mag. If even one round fires from such a mag under proper follower pressure, then there can only be one cartridge space missing.

So . . . is it possible that the third round was loaded backwards and still under proper follower pressure? The first round stripped and fired. The rim of the second round, under follower pressure while being stripped, hung up on the forward oriented rim of the next (reversed) round below it, also under follower pressure, causing that second round to not chamber. The extractor was hooked on the rim of the second cartridge, so retracting the slide ejected that unchambered round. However, neither the extractor nor the face of the slide could strip the backwards loaded round (bullet facing rearward) from the mag, causing another stoppage. This was cleared by dropping the mag.

Sometimes the simplest, most easily explained and reproduced explanation is the correct one. Hard to admit. Human error. If this logical, observable, reproducible, mechanically possible and probable stoppage explanation makes me a "clown", I am willing to live with that moniker.

Can cartridges turn in magazines under non-field conditions? Yep, if set up unrealistically there is space. Under field conditions with previous round(s) having been stripped from the mag under follower pressure? You decide.
 
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Here's an update to the reason this thread started. The Des Moines Register reports today the 3 suspended employees did nothing wrong and are back on duty. IMNSHO there's must be more to this situation....we may never know.
 
No agency wants to air dirty laundry. In a few months, those guys might be doing different work, far removed from the firearms aspect of the job. I'm betting if something did happen, it'll be handled internally. Either way, time will tell what pistol they ultimately choose.

I still thing S&W's methods of getting big contracts appear, at least on the surface, to be less than glistening white.
 
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