Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States
You can download the entire study at the link.
From the summary page,
You can download the entire study at the link.
From the summary page,
.
Interesting Study
- Thread starter GaryS
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Everything gun-grabbers fret about was not supported or otherwise contradicted.
That report will echo for many years to come.
That report will echo for many years to come.
Arik
Member
GUNS are BAD! Which part don't you understand? Stats mean nothing.
Philadelphia Patriot
Member
When I was in college, my buddies would give me a hard time about how much I was into firearms. Slowly they all got their licenses to carry and handguns. Who do you think they came to for advice? 
gaucho1
Member
Once Again?
I read the Economist for news.
They are gun control advocates and typically phobic to
contrary views. Otherwise, interesting and intelligent.
The August 1 issue has an article about ccw holding ministers going armed to church. The context is "mass shootings".
At the end of the story is a quote from Violence Policy Center
that asserts:
"Americans who ccw are far more likely to perpetrate mass shootings than prevent them" and counts 29
such events since 2007.
This does not sound true.........any knowledgeable comments?
I read the Economist for news.
They are gun control advocates and typically phobic to
contrary views. Otherwise, interesting and intelligent.
The August 1 issue has an article about ccw holding ministers going armed to church. The context is "mass shootings".
At the end of the story is a quote from Violence Policy Center
that asserts:
"Americans who ccw are far more likely to perpetrate mass shootings than prevent them" and counts 29
such events since 2007.
This does not sound true.........any knowledgeable comments?
Rick_A
Member
If only one person is saved by a gun...everyone should have a gun.
"Americans who ccw are far more likely to perpetrate mass shootings...." so does that mean those Americans had permits or were they just concealing the firearm? Almost all the mass shootings in the last 20 years have been committed by young men who have been taking prescribed drugs since their teen years. They are loners, cowards, evil and have a different reality they you and me. I don't believe there is a way to prevent the next mass shooting. One can only stop it after it has started by using force, the most efficient method of using force is a firearm. Good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. I don't have a link or the numbers in front of me but there are studies that show how many people die in an mass shooting event with and without intervention by an armed citizen. Which situation do you think there would be less people killed?
Ivan the Butcher
Member
On the Economist report, define Mass Shooting? I would think more than one victim, and not self defense. I think you would be hard pressed to find 29 cases of 3 persons involved in a CCW shooting nationwide!
Concerning Ministers with CCW Permits; Kentucky issued all ministers that wished (who were otherwise qualified) permits after a deranged husband shot up a Sunday service several years ago. My B-I-L was a Ky. minister at the time, he serves in Ohio now and carries! I can't speak to percentages, but here in central Ohio a large percentage of pastors, elders, and deacons carry at church. In Ohio the local church MAY give permission to permit holders (4 out of the 5 congregations of our small denomination do), our congregation gives permission in writing. When shooting Cowboy Action, we have had ministers that OPEN CARRIED in service, on special occasions, at a church beside the range.
Ivan
Concerning Ministers with CCW Permits; Kentucky issued all ministers that wished (who were otherwise qualified) permits after a deranged husband shot up a Sunday service several years ago. My B-I-L was a Ky. minister at the time, he serves in Ohio now and carries! I can't speak to percentages, but here in central Ohio a large percentage of pastors, elders, and deacons carry at church. In Ohio the local church MAY give permission to permit holders (4 out of the 5 congregations of our small denomination do), our congregation gives permission in writing. When shooting Cowboy Action, we have had ministers that OPEN CARRIED in service, on special occasions, at a church beside the range.
Ivan
OP
Interesting opinion about the Economist.
Which sums up why it shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.
Which sums up why it shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone.
OP
Neither of my last two partners before I retired had permits when I started working with them. Withing a couple of years one, who had been mildly anti gun, had his permit (as did his wife) and had asked me for advice and reference letters. The other also has his permit and has built a couple of AR15s. Several friends also got their permits and asked me for advice along the way. Oh, my wife got HER permit after 35 years of being married to me.
My personal experience reflects the study. One of my neighbors doesn't have his permit, but knows that I do. He's told me on a couple of occasions that knowing that makes him feel more safe.
My personal experience reflects the study. One of my neighbors doesn't have his permit, but knows that I do. He's told me on a couple of occasions that knowing that makes him feel more safe.
When I was in college, my buddies would give me a hard time about how much I was into firearms. Slowly they all got their licenses to carry and handguns. Who do you think they came to for advice?
For the past 5 years I had about 2 hours worth of work I do each night at the computer and stream "news" in the background while I'm working. Every now and then something will get me to perk up my ears but I do not recall a single news story about a CCL (CCW) holder perpetrating a mass shooting.
A very superficial look at some headline suggests there are internet articles suggesting somewhere between 19 and 29 mass shooting perpetrated by CCL holders over about the past 10 years. The number 29 comes up a lot.
Here is a quote from The Violence Policy Website and is most likely the source for citing the 29 mass shootings by CCL holders:
"Currently, Concealed Carry Killers documents 568 incidents in 36 states and the District of Columbia resulting in 750 deaths. In 85 percent of the incidents (481) the concealed carry killer committed suicide (222), has already been convicted (196), perpetrated a murder-suicide (46), or was killed in the incident (17). Of the 67 cases still pending, the vast majority (57) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and six incidents are still under investigation. An additional 20 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Seventeen of the victims were law enforcement officers. Twenty-nine of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 139 victims."
As best I can tell there is no clear mention as to whether the "mass shootings" were justifiable or not. It's also possible in the "mass shootings" a CCW hold was involved (i.e. fired shots or had their gun out) but did not shoot or kill anyone. The FBI defines "mass shooting" as 3 or more victims.
While checking out this information a headline at the Huffington Post by Josh Horwitz caught my eye: "Denied a concealed handgun permit in your home state because of your criminal and mental health background? No problem. Thanks to the NRA, you'll now simply be able to mail-order a permit from Utah or Florida and you're ready to carry." Maybe it's true and maybe it's not but my BH (Bull Hockey) meter registers fairly high upon reading this quote.
After looking around for definitive data regarding "mass shootings" involving CCL holders I cannot come to a definitive conclusion. It looks like there are people on both sides of the fence trying to make the data look as good as they can to support their point. Interestingly I spent some time at a website identifying itself as a forum for democrats (democraticunderground.com) in a section where they were discussing guns and conceal carry and CCL holder stats. The members at this website, albeit many begrudgingly, fairly universally agreed that the data was clear that CCL holders were generally significantly more law abiding than the general population and significantly less likely to commit crimes ------ so I think those stats are firm and agree with the stats that started off this thread. Interestingly some inferred that since a few people who will be granted CCL's will eventually commit a felony the system for granting a CCL's is flawed and used this logic as justification against permitting conceal carry.
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gaucho1
Member
It appears that "mass shootings and perpetrator" need to be defined to access the statement in the economist.
I am always suspicious when claims on either side of an issue
are unsupported assertions that may be presented to further
a bias.
As regards the economist........to each his own......
I am always suspicious when claims on either side of an issue
are unsupported assertions that may be presented to further
a bias.
As regards the economist........to each his own......
The last time around that Maryland debated shall issue, the opponents of shall issue presented at length the number and type of offenses committed by CHL holders in Texas and FL, both shall issue, both with large numbers of CHL holders. The raw numbers of total offenses seemed impressive, but the number of felonies was very small.
In rebuttal, the advocates of shall issue pointed out that, USING THE FIGURES JUST PRESENTED BY THE OPPOSITION, if the crime rate in Maryland were to drop to the rate of cited CHL holders,
CRIME IN MARYLAND WOULD HAVE TO DROP 95%.
The MD shall issue bill failed to pass, generally along party lines. The "justification" was unsupported talking points from anti gun organizations. A favorite tactic is for one to make unsupported claims, which are then quoted as authoritative by every other anti group.
In related news, the MD State Police request permission from the legislature to drop the "ballistic fingerprint library" (that empty shell casing) and reallocate the money to other state police functions, because no felonies had been solved using the library. Only after the crime was solved were any matches made. The request was denied and the million dollar a year library was continued "to send a message."
In rebuttal, the advocates of shall issue pointed out that, USING THE FIGURES JUST PRESENTED BY THE OPPOSITION, if the crime rate in Maryland were to drop to the rate of cited CHL holders,
CRIME IN MARYLAND WOULD HAVE TO DROP 95%.
The MD shall issue bill failed to pass, generally along party lines. The "justification" was unsupported talking points from anti gun organizations. A favorite tactic is for one to make unsupported claims, which are then quoted as authoritative by every other anti group.
In related news, the MD State Police request permission from the legislature to drop the "ballistic fingerprint library" (that empty shell casing) and reallocate the money to other state police functions, because no felonies had been solved using the library. Only after the crime was solved were any matches made. The request was denied and the million dollar a year library was continued "to send a message."
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OP
The message being that politicians don't care how they spend the tax payers money?
In related news, the MD State Police request permission from the legislature to drop the "ballistic fingerprint library" (that empty shell casing) and reallocate the money to other state police functions, because no felonies had been solved using the library. Only after the crime was solved were any matches made. The request was denied and the million dollar a year library was continued "to send a message."
Old TexMex
Member
Note terminology: "concealed carry" doesn't define one as having a license. I will allow myself to believe that anyone who hid a firearm on the way to commit the crime is considered a concealed carry killer by the ecommunist magazine...Even if the killing didn't take place, feelings are all that matters anyway, right?
I see similar articles almost every Year since our current Administration got elected and the trend just keeps getting better for the Pro 2A argument and worse for the Gun Grabbers.
Every time a DC Official initiates and Anti-Gun Bill, a few more Americans join the Gun Purchase/Licensed Carry fold.
(kinda like "Every time a Bell Rings, another Angel gets their wings")
Every time a DC Official initiates and Anti-Gun Bill, a few more Americans join the Gun Purchase/Licensed Carry fold.
(kinda like "Every time a Bell Rings, another Angel gets their wings")
Thanks for posting this Gary, it was very informative, with one disappointing note - the NY numbers. Upstate is vastly undercounted.
In my county (Saratoga), there are presently 18,000 pistol permit holders, however many, if not most, are restricted to "Hunting and Target" use.
A pistol license is required to purchase any handgun here, and over the years in some counties, like this one the issuing judges have been restricting them.
An initiative has been announced by the new sheriff and the new issuing judge, that will allow restrictions to be lifted from those license holders who meet soon to be announced requirements and a training course.
In my county (Saratoga), there are presently 18,000 pistol permit holders, however many, if not most, are restricted to "Hunting and Target" use.
A pistol license is required to purchase any handgun here, and over the years in some counties, like this one the issuing judges have been restricting them.
An initiative has been announced by the new sheriff and the new issuing judge, that will allow restrictions to be lifted from those license holders who meet soon to be announced requirements and a training course.
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