Intro Dates .38 SPL vs. .38 S & W

[Fox Creek]

I have always loved S & Ws but never really delved into the variations and evolution of the revolvers. Since finding this forum I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and learning and taking notes with a much better appreciation of the details. Right now I am a bit confused about the intoduction and production of revolvers in .38 S & W and .38 S & W special. I believe the .38 S & W was intoduced around 1897. The .38 Regulation Police was intoduced in 1917 in .38 S & W and continued in production until 1940 with time out for WWII. On the other hand the .38 S & W Special was intoduced in 1902 for the Military and Police model which evolved into the revolver finally designated as MOD 10 in the late 50's. (The M & P having first been introduced in 1899 as the first side-swing .38.) So then S & W was producing revolvers in both .38 S & W and .38 S & W Special at the same time? Did the .38 Regulation Police ever switch over to the .38 S & W Special chambering? What were the basic differences between the M & P and .38 Regulation Police? Why continue the two chamberings side by side? Or was this to meet specific market demands?... Or have a thoroughly misunderstood the whole thing. (I have the book on order from Amazon so maybe that will help.)

Many thanks

 

[Roundsworth]

I have a little info that is specific to WRA Co. They started making the 38 S&W in 1879 with a 145 grain bullet and 14 grains of black powder. Their smokeless load came about in 1894. The BP load was discontinued in 1940. As for the 38 S&W Special, WRA Co. started out in 1900 with a 158 grain bullet and 21 grains of black powder. Smokeless was also available later on in 1900. They stopped production of the BP load in 1938.

 

[Fox Creek]

Thanks, seems there are different dates given depending on where one looks, but that is normal I guess. A little cartoon light bulb just went off in my head which helps; the .38 RP vs. .38 Spcl M & P...The .38 RP was a five-shooter on smaller frame and the M & P was/is a six shooter on the K frame?...that book better show up soon...

 

[opoefc]

If you are in the beginner stage of collecting, the best advice you can get is to buy books, and read them. Guns you buy will eventually be traded or sold, but what sticks in your head from the books, you will never forget and will be a life long tool is selecting the best guns for your collection in the future.
Smith & Wesson, like most business, responds to what the market tells them gun buyers want, whether it's calibers, or model sizes, etc. The gun business is mostly market driven, The .38 S&W round is a centerfire round and was the logical successor to the previous .38 Rimfire cartridges, when the S&W revolvers of the 1880s came on the market in centerfire calibers. The US Army trials of the 1890s specified a more powerful cartridge and S&Ws entry in the trials resulted in a reengineering of the .38 S&W round to the more powerful .38 S&W Special round. Ed.

 

[Alk8944]

The first S&W revolver chambered for the .38 S&W Center Fire was the Model No. 2 Single Action in March, 1876. The cartridge continue in the various top-break models, and was catalogued, in the .38 Safety Hammerless until 1940. The solid frame Model I .38 Regulation Police was introduced in 1917 for the same reason small frame handguns are still produced. The gun was built on the .32 Hand Ejector frame and also was referred to as the .38-.32, .38 caliber on the .32 frame. The I Frame was too short to chamber the .38 Special.

The .38 Special was first manufactured as a Black Powder cartridge with a charge of 18 gr. powder, and the same 158 lead RN bullet as is still available. The first cartridges were delivered to S&W for testing in May 1899, and were manufactured by Union Metallic Cartridge Co, UMC, which later was to merge with Remington as Remington-UMC. In June 1899 the charge was increased to 21 1/2 gr. The first Smokeless loading of the cartridge began in September 1899.

The earliest known Military and Police model revolver chambered for the new cartridge was serial number 8, so it can be seen the .38 Special cartridge was in from the very beginning, and can be inferred that the revolver was specifically designed for the .38 S&W Special from the very beginning in 1899. First recorded production of the .38 Miltary and Police was March 24, 1899 (McHenry & Roper, "Smith & Wesson Hand Guns").

It also can be seen that since Smokeless loading for the .38 Special was available at ca. 6 months into production of the model, and before any engineering change was applied, the contention that the early revolvers somehow were not "certified" for Smokeless powder ammunition can be seen for what it is, a bunch of hooey.

What were the basic differences between the M&P and Regulation Police? They were built on different size frames. The I frame was neither long enough, nor large enough, to be fit with a cylinder of sufficient size to chamber either the .38 Special, or 5 cartridges.

There was continued production of I, Improved I and J frame revolvers chambered in .38 S&W clear up to 1974, even after introduction of the Chief's Special in 1951. Why? Simple, there was demand for them and S&W always has been in the business of making money by manufacturing what the buying public wants. When demand ceases so does production.

There was also continued production of the WWII Victory Model in .38 S&W as the Military & Police .38-200 and Model 11 up to 1965. Same reason, there was demand for them. Why? Who knows. But then the same question continues to be asked of other calibers. Why .32 S&W Long when .38 Special is available? Why .38 Special when .357 Magnum is available? And .44 Spl/Magnum, etc.

 

[Waidmann]

The short version: .38 S&W is a proprietary cartridge and the .38 S&W Special is a lengthened .38 Long Colt.

Many early M&P's are inscribed ".38 S&W Special & U.S. Service Ctgs", the latter being of course the Colt cartridge. that practice ended around 1909 when the .45 Colt was "re-adopted".

Colt returned the compliment by marking their guns in the S&W chambering (and ammo) as Police and New Police. This while they had parallel Colt chamberings.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Yep, the 38S&W started out as fodder for compact center fire vest-pocket/dresser drawer guns about 1879, and subsequently was widely adapted to civilian SD/HD and police service in S&W and Colt DA revolvers.
In the 1920's, the British Army adopted it with a blunt 200g LRN bullet, because the Webley design they originally were working with had a short cylinder unable to be adapted to longer cartridges such as the 38 SPL, and they were pleased with the "slow & heavy" 200g/600fps solution.

Sources I have encountered are unclear whether US manufacturers copied this design and popularized it here as the 38 Super Police, the Brits copied it from us, or designers on both sides of the Atlantic separately arrived at the same solution independently but nearly simultaneously.

 

[Fox Creek]

Thanks everyone for your kind responses. I went to a local gun show a few weeks ago with my bro and there were a surprisingly lot of old revolvers. I saw Mod 13, 15, 19, large button M & P, plus some tiny framed long barreled ones locked up in a plexiglass case. Fascinating. I saw a (I think) I-frame .32 with 2 6-inch barrel in a shop in the region some time ago. Very dainty. I just can't get over how small the guns were in that era, yet accepted as adequate for the task at hand.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Certainly I am struck by the same impression, Fox. There were lots of heavy-caliber revolvers available, but many stuck with lighter calibers nonetheless. Few then or now were as likely to need their guns as Wild Bill Hickok, and he stuck with .36 Navies, which essentially launched a single 000 buckshot with each pull of the trigger.

Another factor may have been that a lot of people just realized they couldn't hit much with a 44 or 45, and/or that people such as Eastern city cops could do less damage by missing with a .32 than with something bigger (think Teddy Roosevelt and NYC). I seem to remember a Skeeter Skelton article about the .32-20, asserting that it was more popular than many suppose, precisely because it was easier to handle for most folks. (Also better for small game, for those whose main priority was meat for the table or killing foxes & coyotes raiding the barnyard, with the knowledge that the same gun could serve as a defense weapon.)

Certainly nobody back "in the day" could afford to burn up practice ammo at the rate we do today, nor were revolvers very forgiving of "spray & pray," so relative precision with minimal practice had to be at a premium.

Among the militaries of the world, the main proponents of heavy calibers were US and GB due to bad experiences with tribesmen; most Euro armies reduced pistol calibers from 40-something to 30-something with the advent of smokeless powder, and they essentially topped out at 9mmP by mid-20th century.

Most folks on this forum can handle 45's and the like, but I sure saw lots of GI's in the 1980's who couldn't handle them at all with the minimal training, practice ammo, and time available. That's precisely why the Brits replaced their .455's with .380 Rimmed (aka 38 S&W) about 1930--they'd concluded that the average hastily-trained wartime soldier could become adequate much more quickly with the lighter caliber, and as we like to say, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45.

Just guessing, but I suspect modern research on "stopping power" may illuminate informal conclusions of 75-100 yrs ago, i.e. that miscreants generally duck, retreat or surrender when fired on, and especially when hit. What we now refer to as "psychological stops." And in great degree, the hell-bent BG's who must be physically stopped, require hits in certain key spots, whether with .32 or .45. That was even more the case when the plain lead bullet was the only option: not nearly the difference in wound channel between lead 32 and lead 45 than between .22 solid and a 45 JHP that expands to .80 or so.

 

[STCM(SW)]

 

[Fox Creek]

So, that begs the question, was the smaller frame Regulation Police ever offered in .38 Spcl? It seems odd to me that they were manufactured in .38 S & W until the 1940's. Or was this an inpossibilty because of the frame/cylinder size?

 

[LouisianaMan]

S&W made the J-frame versions of the RP (33-1) and Terrier (32-1) from the 1950's up until 1974 or so. AFAIK, the same frame, with longer 38 SPL cylinder, became the famous Chief's Special in its various iterations, starting about 1950.

Before WWII the RP and Terrier were made on the I frame, which was smaller and weaker, and I think the cylinder window was also too short to plug in a 38 SPL cylinder without lengthening the frame. Before the J came along, in other words, the I frame design couldn't accommodate 38 SPL. The J's development was specifically to allow the upgrade to 38 SPL, and after it came along, the 32-1 and 33-1 were essentially anachronisms, but sales/demand apparently justified their production for another quarter-century.