Is HP-38 really a duplicate of W231?

[roundgun]

Thank you everyone. Just what I wanted to know.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Always thought that it was but one powder with a different label on the can.But that 2.4 dinitrotoluene difference between the 2 bugs me.
Di means 2 parts
Nitro same family as nitrate=explosive stuff
Toluene=the last ''T'' in TNT which is Trinitrotoluene(Three parts of Nitro for one of toluene I think!).
If this is what I think it is,then they are not the same powder.
Please somebody shed some light about this stuff!

 

[Twoboxer]

Always thought that it was but one powder with a different label on the can.But that 2.4 dinitrotoluene difference between the 2 bugs me.
Di means 2 parts
Nitro same family as nitrate=explosive stuff
Toluene=the last ''T'' in TNT which is Trinitrotoluene(Three parts of Nitro for one of toluene I think!).
If this is what I think it is,then they are not the same powder.
Please somebody shed some light about this stuff!

The analysis by the Forensic group does not have a date on it. If you need light shed on this, call Hodgdon. They are the same powder.

 

[.38SuperMan]

Last year I got back into reloading after being out of it for twenty years. 231 was my standard powder for 45acp and Winchester 540 for my IPSC major loads in 38 super. I was shocked that I couldn’t find either powder and couldn’t get any information from my local dealers. I started researching and discovered HP38 and 231 to be the same and 540 and HS6 to be the same.

I’m not sure why the name change but very happy that they’re still around under different names.

 

[JB4570]

About 10 years ago or so myself and a couple of friends purchased a 30# keg of either 231 or HP I can't remember but under the tag was a sticker indicating the other powder in question, so yes at that time it was the same powder, either it was made by Winchester and over labeled Hodgens or vice versa.

 

[fredj338]

Older hp38 & w231 were slightly diff. Today they are the same powder. H110 & w296 same story.

 

[Skeet 028]

Many years aago I bought a 25 or 30 lb box of HP 38 fron one of my wholesalers(for a dollar a pound) as he wanted to get it out of inventory. When I opened the box the powder was in a plastic bag with stickers on it that said Winchester 231. I already knew it but that sure reiterated the fact for me... Again Win 540= HS-6 Win 571 = HS-7 Win 760= H-414.. There were others but Winchester(St Marks) made the powders and Hodgdon bought from then and repackaged with their brand. Heck even AA#9 is so close to 296/H110 that is pretty near identical ...maybe closer to many lots of WC-820 surplus carbine powder...Winchester did develop ball powder back in the late 30s just for the 30 carbine

 

[castleadslinger]

Older hp38 & w231 were slightly diff.

Not according to Hodgdon. I asked the same question and Hodgdon explained to me, they come from the same hopper. How can they be different. Only difference is from lot to lot.

 

[castleadslinger]

Few pictures of the same lot number from Winchester and Hodgdon.

How to read the lot number.
First number is the weight of the container it's sold in.
Next six numbers is the date the powder was made.
Last four is the lot number.

1 - 1lb bottle
07 - Month of July
16 - Day
14 - Year 2014
2427 - Lot Number

 

[Calliope]

Not according to Hodgdon. I asked the same question and Hodgdon explained to me, they come from the hopper. How can they be different. Only difference is from lot to lot.

They do now, but they used to be two different powders.
My old Speer #11 shows more than just sight differences in charges between the 2 powders. And they recommend magnum primers for one powder but not the other in some loads.
I'm not a powder company historian, but Winchester and Hodgdon were completely separate companies for years IIRC. Now they've merged and consolidated powders if I have it right.

 

[Twoboxer]

Not according to Hodgdon. I asked the same question and Hodgdon explained to me, they come from the same hopper. How can they be different. Only difference is from lot to lot.

Historical chemical analysis shows they once had slightly different chemical composition, perhaps because they were once made by different powder manufacturers.

They were always intended to be the same powder functionally.

The different labels reflect exactly what is going on in this thread . . . people refuse to believe they are the same powder, and continue to use W231 because they always used it.

As you mention, they now come with identical lot numbers because they are packaged from the same powder lot. The ONLY difference between the two powders is price. Hodgdon pays Winchester a royalty to use the name, so W231 costs more at MSRP.

 

[zeke]

Am another believer that Hp-38 and 231 were slightly different (decades ago), due to a coating on 231 that slowed it down slightly. This showed up consistently in differing reloading manuals at the time. Likely they were the same powder, but 231 had the coating. Guessing about 20 years ago.

Also believe now they are exactly the same.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

same thing, have been using them interchangeably for years without issue

 

[riverrat38]

I think the manuals showing different weights for the two powders are using old data. They certainly don't retest all data every time they come out with a revised manual.
A clue is when the manuals show pressure in CUP. Pretty sure all major manual publishers use PSI for new tests. Some manuals use both, so some are newer than others. The powders were probably a little different in the long past. Also, they might have changed their testing protocol over the years, and the powders were tested at different times.

Best,
Rick

 

[Skeet 028]

As we all know Hodgdon makes no powder themselves..Almost all of Hodgdon's early sherical/ball powders were purchased from Winchester. Winchester made powder of all kinds but not formulated for any powder sellers..Gummit's yes. The listings of the makeup of the powders may have been different and the loading data may have been different with different pressures and velocities but that is a function of the testing and equipment more than anything else. Yes the chemical comp of most of the Winchester ball powders, along with the Hodgdon powders, was different at one time. I thinkway back they contained Calcium carbonate? and when it was removeds they had to use other chemicals to keep the same burn rates etc etc...and over the years other better additives came along and that changes the compositions again. Hodgdon sold many powders in the past that were probably made by Winchester like Trap 100(Win 452 ?) HS-5(450AA ?) and they had others I am sure. Heck I have some ball powder called HS-10 which I think is the old Winchester 295...not 296. So remember just because the chemical composition changes a little doesn't mean the two powders are different..it just means the manufacturer has changed something in the newer lots and it may take a while for the other sellers to get the newer stock ..And remember they don't keep testing up to date with every new change in the composition. Testing is expensive..very much so. Some manuals are still using some of the older LUP/CUP designations along with the real PSI

 

[Rodinal220]

They are the same. I have seen fiber barrels of the HP38 propellant used by smaller reloading companies and they had a little paper tag inside that said Winchester 231 made for Hodgdon. Go to a store that has a fair supply of both propellants and see if the lot numbers match, they often do.


You can mix both if the lot numbers match without having to recalibrate your loads.

 

[jag312]

Always thought that it was but one powder with a different label on the can.But that 2.4 dinitrotoluene difference between the 2 bugs me.
Di means 2 parts
Nitro same family as nitrate=explosive stuff
Toluene=the last ''T'' in TNT which is Trinitrotoluene(Three parts of Nitro for one of toluene I think!).
If this is what I think it is,then they are not the same powder.
Please somebody shed some light about this stuff!

I'll try to keep this simple. 2,4 Dinitrotoluene is an organic compound that has two Nitro units bonded at the 2 and 4 positions of a Toluene cyclic structure. You don't just mix Nitro units with Toluene. 2,4,6 Trinitrotoluene or TNT has a third Nitro unit bonded at the 6 position.