Is it enough for self-defense: .380 ACP?

[Rastoff]

Thought YOU'D like this...

Yes I do!!

 

[Gene L]

I've got a .380 PPK-S which is very reliable. Is it ideal? No, but I enjoy carrying it. Also got a PPK in .32 and a 1910 FN. Both are very reliable and the 1910 is about as small as pistol can be. But it has no sights.

For years, European police carried the .32. It was a favorite for some reason.

 

[n c rod]

With reservations yes. Beretta Cheetah with Underwood 90gr JHP @ 1200fps Dirty Harry Callahan would have one on his ankle.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Is there a gun chambered in that cartridge that is reliable? Not that I've found.

BDA 380..in twenty years mine NEVER failed in any way.

 

[LPD256]

All my kids own Glock 19’s. I own one Glock and that’s a 42 in .380. It’s my go to gun sometimes in the summertime when I may just have on shorts. Sometimes a Kahr CW9 feels more appropriate.

 

[JDBoardman]

I voted "maybe" because, as is so often stated, "bullet placement is king". A well-placed .380 bullet is certainly enough to do the job. I personally have a Llama .380 that is a duplicate off the JMB 1911 design - locked breech, swinging link and all. I carried it for many years. I now carry a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless in .32 ACP. I can shoot it well, and unless the encounter becomes bad breath distance, I intend to run like a scared little girl. I figure, in extremis, 7 32 roundsw in the Goblin's eyes will probably get me home safe. And to throw out another cliche', the .32 in my hand is better than the .45 on my dresser.

 

[forrestinmathews]

The bullet technology has advanced sufficient to make it viable. That said my going to town on a sunny day gun is either a NAA mini .22 Short or a .45 Derringer pushing 325gr hard casts with gusto. I'm not expecting any wars.

 

[zzclancy]

I voted no. We all make choices. You make yours and I'll make mine.

I did have a Walther PPKS 380 made in West Germany I carried for years in my pocket as a backup.

My personal bias is for 44 or 45 acp. I like bigger holes. I do carry a 38 special with wadcutters for backup and at the gym.

 

[Glouglou]

I carried a LCP a Glock 42 and a P380.
Very smalls and confortable to carry but i stop because Of the ammo price and because it’s hard to find in my country.
I would like to find a New 232 in 32 but decide to take a 9mm with my xds. I have my J frame pair, and make a good rotation with.
My dream gun? A PPK or à P232 in 9x19

 

[Fastbolt]

I voted Yes, but ...

Lots of ground that can exist between a primary and a secondary weapon choice when it comes to caliber selection.

I'd not have willingly carried a .380 as a primary duty weapon, but I would've as an authorized Secondary weapon, as an alternative to one of my J-frame snubs.

I have chosen to carry a diminutive .380 (I have a pair of LCP's) after I retired (but remained a working Reserve) as both Off-duty and Retirement CCW options ... when one of my J's wouldn't fit inside a short & tight front pants pocket.

I consider a demonstrably reliable itty bitty .380 to fall under the general heading of being a "minimal marginally acceptable" defensive caliber. I much prefer the venerable .38SPL, but in instances where one of my snubs aren't as easily concealed, the thinner and shorter LCP can fit the bill ... for me.

Not intended nor inferred to be an optimal choice.

When first transitioning to add the LCP to my concealed carry option, I ran one or the other of them through some of the courses-of-fire and drills until I satisfied myself I could run them virtually as fast and as accurately as one of my lightweight J's. At least out to 15-20yds (more rudimentary sights on the LCP's). I still run the J's better out at longer distances, but I'm not carrying the .380's as retirement weapons in anticipation of having to shoot threats out at 30-50yds.

 

[Bucher33]

Carried a PPK .380 for years until my son appropriated it. For basically same size and weight I now have a Walther PPS M2 in 9MM. More rounds and more stopping power.

 

[usmc2427765]

Many years ago, in my early LEO career, I received a call to a " shooting/ambulance call". Upon arriving at the scene , I was approached by an elderly home owner who stated that he had just shot, or shot at a burglar. It was about 0300 and very dark and cold so I got a general direction of travel on the suspect and the search began. About 75 yards from the house, I located a very dead burglar that been shot once at the base of his skull with a .380 walther PPK. It turns out the old gentleman had shot the crook as he was running away.

I later discovered the home owner was retired Border Patrol and a USMC Korean War Vet. We exchanged Semper Fi's and shook hands and I finished my Investigation. A Grand Jury No Bill put the icing on the cake. I would stop by from time to time and visit with him until his passing a few years later. He was buried at Arlington.

I guess you could say the .380 was a good round in the correct hands.

 

[Echo40]

.38 ACP predates .380 ACP, genius.

Congratulations on bumping a dead thread just to make a fool of yourself.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Google; "An alternative look at handgun stopping power" for starters. There were a few others like it, but that's the first one that comes to mind.


It also concludes that a double tap from pretty much everything will stop a threat like 88% of the time.

However, it does go to show that the vast majority of people do not enjoy being shot by anything and that bullets in general are potentially lethal, so contrary to what some folks insist, being on drugs does not in fact make 100% of addicts into fearless killing machines who have absolutely no problem with being shot.

My goal is not to "kill" anyone with a one shot stop......................

Shoot until the thread is stopped with whatever caliber you have vs the one that you left at home cus it was too big or heavy!!!!

I carried a Walther .380 PPK for over a decade as my suit gun. Weekends it was a 3" 65 or Sig220 .45............ when the 3rd Gen 9mm 3913 and 6906 hit the market they replaced my German guns and have served me well for 30 years.

 

[fatcat3]

Yes! outside of LEO, or the Military, how many and how often has anyone here fired a handgun into a treat? When I was young and stupid (now I'm just old a foolish) I banged around a lot of places in this world where i shouldn't have been and doing what I had no business doing. I never had to pull the trigger (God takes care of fools and drunks). With the modern design of 380 ammo it is nothing like the old ball ammo of 30-40 years ago. Anything you have with you is better than what you left behind. If i ever do have to use a firearm I'm willing to bet that I'll wish I wasn't there not wish i had x,y,z, gun.

 

[Univibe]

I am imagining one .380 round in the belly button! OUCH! I would bet that would lead the recipient to an immediate interest in which local hospital has the shortest ER waits.

Study actual shootings. Equally likely is that he empties his magazine into you and is sitting up coherent when the ambulance arrives.

Either a bullet penetrates the central nervous system, or a major blood vessel, or it doesn't. The problem with the small calibers is penetration. The .380 can certainly do the job but can sometimes be marginal on penetration.

N.B. to Bucher33: there is no such thing as "stopping power."

 

[rwsmith]

Right ammo is critical...

.380 can do the job with the right ammo. But they aren't any easier to shoot than a 9mm. I have a all steel Llama and the thing is miserable to shoot. Not that that is a terrible deal for a carry gun, but practicing with it is no fun.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Nobody ever wants to get shot.....with anything.

I used to carry a .380 (HK4) and thought it was fine. If I still had it I would still carry it.

 

[BB57]

.380 can do the job with the right ammo. But they aren't any easier to shoot than a 9mm. I have a all steel Llama and the thing is miserable to shoot. Not that that is a terrible deal for a carry gun, but practicing with it is no fun.

The problem with the bold yellow statement above is that blanket statements like that are just not accurate. The problem with the bold red statement above is that it is very subjective.

The bold yellow statement really depends what you are comparing it to. A 25 oz Llama .380 to a 39 oz Browning Hi Power 9mm? Sure, there might be some validity there. But beyond that the argument starts to fall apart. I've shot the Llama .380 and it's typical of a 25 oz blowback .380 ACP like the RIA Baby Rock or blowback operated .380 ACP pistols like the PPK/S, FEG AP9S or APK9S weighing 27 to 28 oz.

It's subjective, but I personally don't find any of them particularly difficult or uncomfortable to shoot and 100 round range sessions don't make my hand hurt. Let's use that subjective impression as a start point for an objective discussion and comparison of weight and recoil.

The alloy frame FEG SMC .380 is much lighter at 20 oz loaded, and being a blowback design the recoil is much sharper feeling than a PPK/S or Baby Rock. However the grip is also reasonably wide and again I don't find it uncomfortable to shoot - although it is admittedly my least favorite .380 ACP to shoot.

The Kimber Micro and Sig 238 are .380 ACP pistols weighing right around 17 oz loaded. However, they use a delayed recoil locking system like the 1911, so while the recoil is technically slightly more than the 20 oz SMC, it's spread over a bit longer period of time and it feels very much like the 27 oz PPK/S and 25 oz Baby Rock pistols.

In contrast, the Kimber Micro 9 and the Sig 938 are not much larger than their .380 counterparts and weigh about 21 oz loaded. However, they produce a lot more recoil due to the higher velocity and heavier bullet commensurate with the 9mm Luger cartridge. Neither of those are my first choice to fire in a 100 round range session.

I do however carry a CZ 2075 RAMi from time to time with the short 10 round magazine installed. It weighs 30 oz loaded and it is both comfortable and controllable to shoot. It's as small as I like to go with a 9mm Luger pistol as below this threshold controllability starts to suffer and they become uncomfortable to shoot, which means you won't practice enough with one to get really good with it.

Whether you are shooting a 9mm or a .380 ACP, the thing to keep in mind is that neither one is effective when you miss. If you miss more with a sub compact 9mm Luger than you do with a compact .380 ACP, I'll argue the .380 ACP is a much better choice for you.

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Let's look at some comparative recoil numbers and let's start with the 17 oz Kimber Micro with it's delayed recoil locking system using a 90 gr bullet at 910 fps:

Kimber Micro (17 oz, 90 gr 910 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.45 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 14.27 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 3.23(ft.lbf)


Next let's look at the 20 oz blowback operated SMC with the same load. This is where the numbers are a bit deceptive as the operating systems are not the same. While the numbers are lower for the SMC, the "felt" recoil is subjectively better in Kimber Micro as the delayed recoil system spreads the recoil out over a longer period of time:

FEG SMC (20 oz, 90 gr 910 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.45 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 11.65 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 2.63 (ft.lbf)


Now let's look at the 25 oz Baby Rock with the same 90 grain load at the same 910 fps velocity. You'll note the recoil impulse is identical so far in all three examples (same bullet weight and velocity), but the increasingly heavier weight of the pistols reduces the recoil velocity and recoil energy:

RIA Baby Rock (25 oz, 90 gr, 910 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.45 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 9.33 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 2.11 (ft.lbf)

However, the Baby Rock has a 3.9" barrel rather than a 2.75" barrel so realistically it's going to launch a 90 gr bullet at around 1050 fps. That bumps up the recoil impulse and in turn the other numbers. It's now very similar to the SMC in terms of recoil, but with 140 fps more velocity and better terminal effectiveness:

RIA Baby Rock (25 oz, 90 gr, 1050 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.51 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 10.49 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 2.67 (ft.lbf)

The 27 ounce PPK/S has a 3.5" barrel and will launch a 90 gr bullet at around 1000 fps with slightly less recoil impulse than the Baby Rock but more than the SMC:

PPK/S (27 oz, 90 gr 1000 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.49 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 9.35 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 2.28 (ft.lbf)

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For comparison purposes with the delayed blowback 17 oz Kimber Micro .380, let's look at the delayed blowback 21 oz Kimber Micro 9 using a 115 gr bullet at 1050 fps to reflect the short 3.15" barrel length. You'll note the much higher recoil impulse and the much higher recoil energy in what is very much an apples to apples operating system comparison:

Kimber Micro .380 (17 oz, 90 gr 910 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.45 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 14.27 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 3.23(ft.lbf)

Kimber Micro 9 (21 oz, 115 gr at 1050 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.65 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 15.89 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 5.14 (ft.lbf)

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Now let's get to the heart of the issue and compare the Micro 9 to the 30 oz CZ 2075 It has a 3" barrel but we'll use the same 1050 fps. We'll also use the Kimber Micro .380 in the comparison. Note the same recoil impulse for the CZ and the Micro 9 (same load), but also note the much lower recoil velocity and recoil energy numbers for the heavier CZ 2075:

Kimber Micro .380 (17 oz, 90 gr 910 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.45 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 14.27 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 3.23(ft.lbf)

Kimber Micro 9 (21 oz, 115 gr at 1050 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.65 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 15.89 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 5.14 (ft.lbf)

CZ 2075 RAMI (30 oz, 115 gr at 1050 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.65 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 11.1 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 3.59 (ft.lbf)

You'll also note the recoil velocity of the 30 oz CZ 2075 is actually lower than the 17 oz Kimber Micro .380 ACP and the recoil energy isn't significantly higher. In fact, if you shot them both you'd agree the recoil is pretty comparable. Your main observation would probably be that the larger grip on double column magazine CZ spreads that recoil out a bit more on your hand.


Last, just to round it out, let's take the large frame BHP weighing 39 oz and see how it compares. Since it has a 4.625" barrel we'll give it a full 1150 fps velocity. You'll note the higher recoil impulse due to the higher muzzle velocity, but note the recoil energy of 3.23 ft.lbf is exactly the same as the Kimber Micro .380 ACP. The difference is the much lighter Kimber Micro has about 50% more recoil velocity, so it's recoil feels sharper than the BHP:

Browning Hi Power (39 oz 115 gr, 1150 fps)
Recoil Impulse = 0.7 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity = 9.24 (fps)
Recoil Energy = 3.23 (ft.lbf)

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The cliff notes version of all of the above is that you've got two pistols here with very similar recoil - a Kimber Micro in .380 ACP and a CZ 2075 in 9mm Luger. However, the Kimber Micro only weighs about half as much as the CZ 2075, and it is significantly thinner. The Kimber Micro makes a good pocket pistol, while the CZ 2075 doesn't. On the other hand, the CZ 2075 is still compact for IWB carry and offers 10+1 capacity with 9mm Luger capability.