Is THAT the active shooter?
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nachogrande
Member
DICKIE PETERSON
The deceased bass player? A reference/insult/name calling??? A bit foggy this am with a football hangover, NOT GETTING IT.
The deceased bass player? A reference/insult/name calling??? A bit foggy this am with a football hangover, NOT GETTING IT.
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I dealt with an active shooter some years ago in Deming, New Mexico. Thirteen year-old Victor Cordova, a disturbed young man whose mother had just died horribly of cancer and whose father beat him for crying about it, fired a single action 22 revolver he brought to school into the crowded entryway of Deming Middle School as kids came into the building from lunch. He first shot struck 12 year-old Araceli Tena in the back of the head - she didn't die right away and was jerking spasmodically from the brain stem damage. My officer was 35 feet away watching the school zone; a trained SRT officer, he grabbed his AR-15 and had the young man 'covered' within seconds. The problem was the dozens of children, teachers, and staff caught in the confined area who couldn't get out because the school went 'Code Red' and locked down, leaving the shooter, unfortunate students/staff/teachers, and Ross within feet of each other. Ross couldn't fire without hitting more than just the shooter; he kept him directly at gunpoint until Cordova was talked out of his revolver by the principal, Hector Madrid. The revolver had fired once, but the hammer had struck 3 other cartridges without firing.
I'm convinced an armed citizen running toward this hot incident would have greatly increased the likelihood of forcing the officer to divert his attention when he needed to be exceptionally precise (if he had fired) to avoid collateral damage. I'm less convinced an armed citizen actually firing at Cordova would have had a good result in the crowded entryway.
Reading about incidents later and armchair quarterbacking is fine - just don't think your good intentions will mean a happy ending.
Araceli died at Thomason in El Paso later that afternoon.
I'm convinced an armed citizen running toward this hot incident would have greatly increased the likelihood of forcing the officer to divert his attention when he needed to be exceptionally precise (if he had fired) to avoid collateral damage. I'm less convinced an armed citizen actually firing at Cordova would have had a good result in the crowded entryway.
Reading about incidents later and armchair quarterbacking is fine - just don't think your good intentions will mean a happy ending.
Araceli died at Thomason in El Paso later that afternoon.
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raylan007
Member
It ain't like in the movies.
That's affirmative.
Everybody has a plan until they get shot. 
CScott
Member
From an Earlier Post of Mine, 2014
Default Absolutely Tragic Story
Yesterday a good man died having been shot by a Santa Fe police officer last March. The man was retired military and retired LEO himself. Apparently, he was armed and responding to a burglar alarm at a home for which he was a caretaker. When he thought that it was a false alarm he came out from around the side of the building and face to face with the "burglar" who turned out to be a city police officer responding to the same alarm. The officer announced himself as police, saw a gun being pointed at him and made the split second decision. He fired seven times, hitting the caretaker three times with 40 S&W. Audio recording backed up the officer as having identified himself. Just a tragic situation altogether and a long slow death for a man known to loved ones as "the little mayor".
ALWAYS REMEMBER, you may not be the only one responding to an alarm.
Scott
Default Absolutely Tragic Story
Yesterday a good man died having been shot by a Santa Fe police officer last March. The man was retired military and retired LEO himself. Apparently, he was armed and responding to a burglar alarm at a home for which he was a caretaker. When he thought that it was a false alarm he came out from around the side of the building and face to face with the "burglar" who turned out to be a city police officer responding to the same alarm. The officer announced himself as police, saw a gun being pointed at him and made the split second decision. He fired seven times, hitting the caretaker three times with 40 S&W. Audio recording backed up the officer as having identified himself. Just a tragic situation altogether and a long slow death for a man known to loved ones as "the little mayor".
ALWAYS REMEMBER, you may not be the only one responding to an alarm.
Scott
Mainsail
Member
Yes I would engage. 
No, I'm lookin' out for #1.
Here's a thought.
Instead of boxing yourself into a plan (if you can call it that) how about you rehearse the scenarios in your head, and if it ever happens you just play the hand you're dealt.
Yes you would, no you wouldn't - irrelevant.
I spent 20 years flying jets - practically every in-flight emergency was not as described in the book. As aircrew, we had permission to disobey technical orders if, in our judgement, we concluded that to follow the emergency checklist would exacerbate or worsen the issue, or endanger the aircraft.
Resolve to do the best you can with the knowledge you possess and the situation into which you find yourself. The variable is the knowledge you possess- you can get more of that now (legalities, tactics, ballistics, etc).
No, I'm lookin' out for #1.
Here's a thought.
Instead of boxing yourself into a plan (if you can call it that) how about you rehearse the scenarios in your head, and if it ever happens you just play the hand you're dealt.
Yes you would, no you wouldn't - irrelevant.
I spent 20 years flying jets - practically every in-flight emergency was not as described in the book. As aircrew, we had permission to disobey technical orders if, in our judgement, we concluded that to follow the emergency checklist would exacerbate or worsen the issue, or endanger the aircraft.
Resolve to do the best you can with the knowledge you possess and the situation into which you find yourself. The variable is the knowledge you possess- you can get more of that now (legalities, tactics, ballistics, etc).
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The main problem with going looking for trouble is sometimes you find it!
I've mentioned this before...... had the opportunity to do Simulation Training with the local Police Dept. last winter. Of the civilians there I'd say 5-7 had concealed carry permits..... 90% of the simulations ended up somewhere between SNAFU and *****.
Doing my simulation and watching others do theirs were both great learning experiences. The big screen computer generated situations were based on real incidents..... and looking back designed by the instructor /computer to stress the "officer" and in some cases designed to be either "almost unbeatable".... or allowed for no right/good response.... ie..... "damn if you do ....damned if you don't." All kind of like real life......................
A few months later got the chance to participate in a Twp. ALICE Training seminar.......which included active shooter (Police officers) drills......happy to report I only "died" once that afternoon..... when my "plan" to secure a door was impossible to implement. Looking back I got shot because I had "a" preconceived plan..... that I could not implement.... if I'd had a open mind I could have improvised with what was in the room.
Based on other similar threads here and Officers responses I have to agree with "'Federali"...... officers are prone to shoot faster than I think my Dad would have 30 years ago..... one of the things they were drilling into folks at the ALICE Training.... don't get caught holding a gun!
In one session they were showing us how to 'swarm" a shooter (last resort in ALICE) ..... anyway I ended up with the "red gun" as I came up from the 'dog pile" one of the other instructors came through the same door as the 'shooter" w/in 5-10 seconds ... he'd been "playing" a shooter all afternoon......... I simulated a double tap...... his eyes got real big!!!
Later he was all like ...."why'd you do that??!! I wasn't part of that drill! You're suppose to get rid of the gun" ..
Me. "well you came through the same door as the 'shooter" within 10 seconds.... had a red gun in your hand and no "uniform'...... I figured you were a second shooter!!!! So I shot you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Him: Ya... well..........OK!!!
Doing my simulation and watching others do theirs were both great learning experiences. The big screen computer generated situations were based on real incidents..... and looking back designed by the instructor /computer to stress the "officer" and in some cases designed to be either "almost unbeatable".... or allowed for no right/good response.... ie..... "damn if you do ....damned if you don't." All kind of like real life......................
A few months later got the chance to participate in a Twp. ALICE Training seminar.......which included active shooter (Police officers) drills......happy to report I only "died" once that afternoon..... when my "plan" to secure a door was impossible to implement. Looking back I got shot because I had "a" preconceived plan..... that I could not implement.... if I'd had a open mind I could have improvised with what was in the room.
Based on other similar threads here and Officers responses I have to agree with "'Federali"...... officers are prone to shoot faster than I think my Dad would have 30 years ago..... one of the things they were drilling into folks at the ALICE Training.... don't get caught holding a gun!
In one session they were showing us how to 'swarm" a shooter (last resort in ALICE) ..... anyway I ended up with the "red gun" as I came up from the 'dog pile" one of the other instructors came through the same door as the 'shooter" w/in 5-10 seconds ... he'd been "playing" a shooter all afternoon......... I simulated a double tap...... his eyes got real big!!!
Later he was all like ...."why'd you do that??!! I wasn't part of that drill! You're suppose to get rid of the gun" ..
Me. "well you came through the same door as the 'shooter" within 10 seconds.... had a red gun in your hand and no "uniform'...... I figured you were a second shooter!!!! So I shot you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Him: Ya... well..........OK!!!
I, and any family with me, would head for cover and move away from the reports. I would not draw my gun as I wouldn't want to be mistaken for the shooter by someone with a brand new shiny CCL with little situational awareness and who's already at DEFCON 10.
My prime duty to my family is to stay alive. They don't want a dead hero.
My prime duty to my family is to stay alive. They don't want a dead hero.
Sistema1927
US Veteran
Another thing to think about. While everyone else is heading to the front door, and bunching up in their way to get out, you should be heading for the stockroom and exiting at the loading dock, even if it requires opening an alarmed door.
Those folks up front are targets.
Those folks up front are targets.
^^^Best advice on this thread!
Dvan34
Member
I agree. There is also the danger of mistaking or intervening in a shootout that a LEO(s) is already on spot with. We've read where citizens have moved into these situations where plainclothes officers were arresting or subduing someone.
nachogrande
Member
IN CASE OF EMERGENCY
RULE # 1: fffforget the rules, rely on training/instinct/ what is happening NOW/your best ideas IN THE MOMENT. You will have plenty of time & help on how you "should have handled it", at a later time.
RULE # 2: refer to rule # 1.
RULE # 1: fffforget the rules, rely on training/instinct/ what is happening NOW/your best ideas IN THE MOMENT. You will have plenty of time & help on how you "should have handled it", at a later time.
RULE # 2: refer to rule # 1.
The fatal mistake here was having his handgun out of his holster before an imminent threat was present.
The mistake was NOT responding to the alarm, and it was NOT being an armed citizen.
His mistake of having a gun out and pointing at an officer when he rounded the corner put him in the position of teeing up the mistake of fact shooting that then occurred.
Here in Illinois (where CCL as a percentage of population is fairly low) I've never been asked to exit the car, even after I've been asked if I'm carrying. I do always keep my hands in sight for everyone's comfort.
I didn't get it either. All I can divine is that he isn't real supportive of the suggestions that armed citizens are the people in the best position to immediately respond to a mass shooting and reduce casualties by engaging the shooter.
It's just one of several not very supportive posts reflecting an interesting reaction from many law enforcement members.
On the one hand, it's obvious they'd like to be able to go into any situation and know everyone with a gun is a bad guy - and I completely get that.
On the other hand, the statistics on mass shootings are very clear that the incident is over and done with before the first officer ever arrives on scene.
The data is also very clear that when the police treat mass shootings like hostage situations the death toll is also much higher - since mass shooters don't have the same end goal as a hostage taker and see no value in taking hostages or keeping them alive.
So it's interesting that so many police officers - who from experience known they almost never arrive at a crime scene in time to actually "save" anyone - are so opposed to armed citizens actually using a handgun to defend others.
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Looking at it logically:
1) There is a high degree of risk that the good guy with a gun might be shot by the assailant as the risk is 1 in 3 to the initial responding officer and would be no lower for an armed citizen;
2) In addition, unless he has some common sense, there is a substantial risk that risk that he will shoot or be shot by another good guy with a gun especially if he draws that gun before an imminent threat is present;
3) If the good guy isn't smart enough or aware enough to put the gun down or re-holster it before police arrive, there is a real risk of being shot by police.
4) However, that is balanced by the fact that the armed citizen is on scene when the shooting starts and may be in a position to immediately stop a mass shooter who he observes opening fire on unarmed victims, or at least pin him down or slow him down, saving lives in the process - including LEO lives.
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I'm not clear if this LEO attitude against the actual use of a gun in self defense in a mass shooting situation is a result of a form of institutional arrogance coming out as "step back that's our job" while ignoring the data, or if it's just an artifact of a tendency toward giving the most conservative advice from a legal perspective to cover all the bases, such as a well meaning but not so bright armed citizen who might not act in a prudent manner.
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What you say is an LEO attitude against actual use of a gun in self-defense just could be behavior based on experience. I've actually encountered exactly one (1) 'good shoot' by a civilian since 1979; that was a woman being stalked/hunted by an ex over weeks who finally just killed him in the middle of the street. We still arrested her and seized the firearm until we finished preliminary investigation - she was still alive and only slightly inconvenienced. Good for her.
Balance that against the most common citizen (not really criminals') uses of firearms that we very commonly see (suicide, accidental discharge, aggravated assault arising from arguments, negligent use while drinking, brandishment, and shooting calls wherein a shooter's reasonably lawful activity done in an unthinking manner legitimately scared the bejesus out of someone) and that might offer a hint about what you describe as an attitude. One that I freely admit I just displayed.
Balance that against the most common citizen (not really criminals') uses of firearms that we very commonly see (suicide, accidental discharge, aggravated assault arising from arguments, negligent use while drinking, brandishment, and shooting calls wherein a shooter's reasonably lawful activity done in an unthinking manner legitimately scared the bejesus out of someone) and that might offer a hint about what you describe as an attitude. One that I freely admit I just displayed.
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