Is the 40 S&W dieing?

[Arik]

As a recently retired FBI agent (and firearms instructor) I have a little actual knowledge of the Bureau's use of the 10mm, .40, and 9mm.

No wimpy agents were ever issued the mighty manly 10mm. The ammo guys started with a 10mm case and a 180 grain bullet and added powder until the bullet did what they wanted. This happened at about 950 fps. Then they said, Who wants to make us several million of these?

The only round issued to agents was the 180/950. I know internet folks love to picture nerdy lawyers and accountants whimpering and flinging Norma 200 grain Jeff Cooper loads hither and yon, but it didn't happen. Sorry.

(Also the lawyer and accountant thing hasn't been true since about 1950. About half of new agents are from the military, and there are plenty of former cops, too. To be completely honest, I did work with a guy who was a former HR manager at Sea World, but he was a shooting fool.)

The 10mm handgun died in the Bureau because of the recall of the 1076. By then the .40 was popular, and we went with that. By the way, I had a 10mm issued to me when I retired in June, but it was made by H&K and was full auto.

There is one reason and one reason only we went to the 9mm. The ammo is cheaper. The ammo budget was stagnant or cut every year I was an instructor - raided to pay for computers and the analysts who squint at them all day. If the 9 works as well as the 40 we might as well buy that.

Nobody had trouble qualifying with the 40s, even the girls. Nobody told them it was "snappy". Most will be carrying 40s for years while the 9s get phased in.

What was the FBI load for the 40?

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[Penmon]

I work at my local gun store on Saturday, while the 40 is far from dead it seems to me the customers want 9's or 45's.
The main complaint I hear is, I don't want another caliber.
or from the newbies
I think the the 9 would be easier to learn on.
I also hear a lot about ammo prices, as in the 9mm ammo is less expensive to purchase.

 

[Hoov]

Yes. Fotay is dead. The commercial market follows the government. I did not read all the responses and didn't have to. The M&P is also dead in my part of the country. I have owned several, but traded them all off.

 

[rosborn]

I have a M&P .40 and love everything about it...comfortable gun and, for me, great to shoot. All of my coworkers who have shot with my M&P also love it.

I haven't done it yet but the M&P .40 is supposed to be very easily converted into other, smaller, calibers, like 9mm. For me, that is a pretty useful option. At the moment, I am looking to add a CCW pistol (possibly the Shield 40 or the M&P 40c). Obviously, if the .40 cal can be converted to 9mm then I would have more options going forward. If I go with either the 9mm or the .45 cal then my options are limited to only those two caliber bullets. Maybe I'm not understanding this concept?

 

[Arik]

Yes. Fotay is dead. The commercial market follows the government. I did not read all the responses and didn't have to. The M&P is also dead in my part of the country. I have owned several, but traded them all off.

If commercial market followed the gov then there'd be a lot less 45. Most departments/agencies carry 9/40.

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[Arik]

I have a M&P .40 and love everything about it...comfortable gun and, for me, great to shoot. All of my coworkers who have shot with my M&P also love it.

I haven't done it yet but the M&P .40 is supposed to be very easily converted into other, smaller, calibers, like 9mm. For me, that is a pretty useful option. At the moment, I am looking to add a CCW pistol (possibly the Shield 40 or the M&P 40c). Obviously, if the .40 cal can be converted to 9mm then I would have more options going forward. If I go with either the 9mm or the .45 cal then my options are limited to only those two caliber bullets. Maybe I'm not understanding this concept?

From 40 you can only switch to 9. You can do 357sig but it's kinda in between. But there are no other smaller options

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[TexasRaider]

Ballistics aside, whether the .40 S&W dies or not remains to be seen.
However the death of folks saying "Fotay" cannot come soon enough....

 

[okiegtrider]

Ballistics aside, whether the .40 S&W dies or not remains to be seen.
However the death of folks saying "Fotay" cannot come soon enough....

Darn right.

 

[fallhunter]

Not exactly. I am think of getting a .40 and carrying it sometimes.

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[sigp220.45]

What was the FBI load for the 40?

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The last stuff I was issued was Winchester 180 grain bonded JHP, Q4355.

 

[dmar]

It's been dead to me for close to 20 years. Got a Beretta 96, in Inox back in 1997. Loved the gun, but not the round. The 96 sat in my safe for years, barely used, until I finally sold it a couple of years ago. I do not miss the .40 round at all.

I primarily go with .45 ACP, or 9mm for carry, and am very happy with this decision. I do have a couple of 10mm pistols, and like that round quite a bit. I highly recommend the 10mm to anyone that hasn't tried it; much better performance than the .40 S&W, and more fun to shoot, too!

 

[QED]

.38s are ragged edge of performance and could almost be considered 'obsolete', and don't have a fraction of their former popularity, but a lot of people still used them and they aren't dead. I think that if the .40 does drop in popularity, there are plenty enough people that like them to keep them around.

There's hardly any terminal difference between .38 and 9mm and both are at the "ragged edge of performance" for self-defense; .40 continues to offer a superior terminal choice for serious self-defense purposes for those that can shoot it reasonably well.

 

[clarkz71]

There's hardly any terminal difference between .38 and 9mm and both
are at the "ragged edge of performance" for self-defense;

Seriously? That's an uninformed comment.

Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P 9mm = 1200 fps. Common knowledge

Speer Gold Dot 125gr +P .38 special = 825 fps

 

[Arik]

There's hardly any terminal difference between .38 and 9mm and both are at the "ragged edge of performance" for self-defense; .40 continues to offer a superior terminal choice for serious self-defense purposes for those that can shoot it reasonably well.

Actually 9mm standard pressure has on average 100ft-lbs of pressure more than 38+P, both out of 4in barrels.

-124gr +P GDHP has 410 at the muzzle and 324 at 50 yards.

-180gr GDHP(40s&w) has 420 and 365 at 50 yards

The FBI load has 417ft-lbs at the muzzle,


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[moongoon]

I only have 2 .40's, a Glock 22 with a flash light on it, and a Highpoint carbine.(oh shut up). Both reliable, hard hitting and accurate. Biggest advantage for me is that all of the police around here use .40's and I can pick up once fired brass by the bucket full. I hope that the guns do get cheaper. I'll buy them.

 

[StakeOut]

Mental preparedness,training and marksmanship,not test bench ballistics.

 

[QED]

Seriously? That's an uninformed comment.

Well, I'm always willing to get informed by any factually relevant statements and actually welcome them whenever I come across them. However, I don't deem anything that you posted as being relevant to invalidating my "uninformed" comment.

Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P 9mm = 1200 fps. Common knowledge

Sure, from a 4" barrel, 1200 fps is the rated velocity of this round. The terminal performance of this round, to have some relevance, should include gel calibration (it's perhaps not so common knowledge that gel viscosity affects penetration).

Speer Gold Dot 125gr +P .38 special = 825 fps

I actually am totally uninformed about where you got 825 fps MV for this round -- certainly wouldn't apply for a 4" barrel. In addition, .38 special +P can, unlike 9mm, utilize a 158 grain JHP at some 900 fps (while being within SAAMI) -- which will have as good or even somewhat better terminal performance in bare standard gel compared to a 9mm 124 gr. GD @ 1200 fps.

 

[QED]

Actually 9mm standard pressure has on average 100ft-lbs of pressure more than 38+P, both out of 4in barrels.

Firstly, pressure is force divided by area not force multiplied by distance; ft-lbs are units of energy, not pressure. Further, there is no direct correlation between bullet energy and terminal performance from a handgun -- unless bullet mass is also taken into account. Mass is much more important in terminal effects (in soft tissue or gel) than velocity; a handgun bullet with more energy but less mass than another often has inferior terminal performance. In any case, this is irrelevant to the fact that 9mm and .38+P -- from comparable barrels and properly chosen rounds -- have virtually the same terminal performance.

-124gr +P GDHP has 410 at the muzzle and 324 at 50 yards.

-180gr GDHP(40s&w) has 420 and 365 at 50 yards

The FBI load has 417ft-lbs at the muzzle,


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Yes, .40 cal 180 gr. GD has more energy AND mass at the muzzle and at 50 yards than the 9mm 124 gr +P (deemed one of most effective 9mm rounds by many) -- so physics, uninformed opinions notwithstanding, demands superior terminal performance! As pointed out in a previous post, 158 gr. LSWCHP @ 900 fps is as terminally effective or even somewhat more so than the 9mm "best" in bare gel or soft tissue.

 

[Arik]

Since all you like to do is add numbers. Look up Doc GKR. Someone whose been testing ammunition for police and military for the last 20 years

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[QED]

Since all you like to do is add numbers. Look up Doc GKR. Someone whose been testing ammunition for police and military for the last 20 years

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That's quite an interesting comment considering you posted a bunch of numbers to make your point -- which I then commented on without "adding" them. Since you are recommending to look up "DocGKR" -- I wonder what you have learned from this "expert"?