Is the frequency of lemons increasing?

[Hapworth]

The OP was not seeking advice or help.

He was showing us the New fine gun he bought.

Sad new S&W revolvers are shipping this way.

I guess your opinion was wrong here, guy was showing us the gun he just bought, and all the problems he found.

Point of fact, gents, OP was indeed seeking feedback as to whether factory-shipped problem S&Ws are an increasing phenomenon; it's right there in the title. OP is undoubtedly already aware that some things were missed on his initial inspection.

As to the question: unless we have access to S&W's books, none of us can speak meaningfully as to whether lemons are rolling out more, less or the same compared to...whenever.

 

[Jim1392]

Without a lot of detail since I have in a prior post. I had to go through 3 guns at my LGS that came straight from the factory when I was buying my 640 Pro before I found one that was acceptable. And even that was not anywhere near perfect. I doubt how they are making any brand of gun today you will find one in near perfect condition straight from the factory. Not to mention when they put one in the showcase and every yahoo that comes in the door handles it.

 

[TNDave]

Years ago the armourer of our local police dept told me he approached Smith about all the problems the dept was having with their new 4043's. He was an old school guy. He was stunned to learn from his Smith rep that the new policy was to make guns to a certain price point. Then, if a gun had problems, they would repair or replace it. What Smith was betting on was most people never shoot their guns that much. They buy them, shoot them a little, put them in a drawer. They may shoot it a couple times a year but probably only 100 round or less. They will never wear the gun out and can't shoot well enough or know enough about guns to detect small problems. Smith is right. It is a small group who shoot thousands of rounds a year.

That way Smith keeps costs down. If you shoot your gun a lot and it acts up, or recognize barrel cant or something they will fix it. Still cheaper for them than producing high quality guns. That is the truth. That was in the 1990's. I guess things haven't changed.

 

[peterthefish]

Years ago the armourer of out local police dept told be he approached Smith about all the problems the dept was having with their new 4043's. He was an old school guy. He was stunned to learn from his Smith rep that the new policy was to make guns to a certain price point. Then, if a gun had problems, they would repair or replace it. What Smith was betting on was most people never shoot their guns that much. They buy them, shoot them a little, put them in a drawer. They may shoot it a couple times a year but probably only 100 round or less. They will never wear the gun out and can't shoot well enough or know enough about guns to detect small problems. Smith is right. It is a small group who shoot thousands of rounds a year.



That way Smith keeps costs down. If you shoot your gun a lot and it acts up, or recognize barrel cant or something they will fix it. Still cheaper for them than producing high quality guns. That is the truth. That was in the 1990's. I guess things haven't changed.

A lot of truth here I think. To get them consistently well fit and QC'd out the door, prices would probably go up $200-$300 bucks. This way if you want one good you send it back and it comes back good at no extra cost. If you don't know or care then no ones the wiser.

 

[S&W Rover]

To answer the OP's question, I don't know. The ones I have bought are just fine, but we're talking a sampling of five or six in the last couple of years.

The paradox here is that as more people bought guns over the past couple of years, their individual gun knowledge (and thus detection of errors) went down -- so that S&W may not have detected increasing error rates (if they occurred) because the clientele wasn't returning the products.

I recently looked closely at two 686 Pluses with 3" barrels at the Dulles Gun Show. The 686 Plus 3" is my grail gun, and I'm getting closer to buying one. Both of the ones I looked at were nice (barrels on strait, no dings) but I did not get to cycle the actions because the guns were zip-tied to be inoperable.

I suspect that guns with problems come in streaks: a badly done function or a faulty tool, or a sloppy worker, can mess up a day's worth of guns or more. As others have noted, QC as a separate function is an archaic idea, in the day and age of CNC machines with internal monitoring of cutters and grinders. But it shouldn't be. The goal should be to inspect a series of guns off one line, so as to find the upstream error -- not so much the individually damaged gun -- and correct the underlying problem.

I tend to buy on-line, and the particular dealer I use allows a gun to be returned if a problem is detected BEFORE TRANSFER. This gives me two options: refuse a gun, and maybe the next one will be better; or accept the one I get and if it has a problem, send it back to S&W. The only good news in this story is that S&W customer service is pretty good.

Final comment (don't ban me from the forum!) is that I'd probably accept a 686 Plus with a 3" shrouded barrel -- if S&W made it without the IL!

 

[BigBill]

Can't defend poor workmanship. I need to carefully look at what I purchase from now on.

I'd like to be a head hunter for s&w. Quality is #1.except nothing less.

OT I wanted a SA M1A but they were having problems. I purchased a Russian Saiga in 308/$289.
Then I found a norinco m14 $379. Both function fine. I don't have time in my life for problematic guns.

 

[JohnRyan]

Bought my first firearm in August, 686+ 4". It seemed like a simple choice at the time. Go with the tried and true. I wanted a classic that would be reliable and simple to operate. I've a lot of problems along the way (documented here).

Being new to this world I did not have sufficient knowledge at the time to do a proper inspection. I probably wouldn't have been able to tell anyway. Sending back to S&W for the second time soon, hopefully they get it right this time.

 

[BigBill]

I had new 1911 that had problems name brands. I digested every how to 1911 video out there. I fix my own 1911 now.

 

[suckersrus]

Several posters have finally said what I have been scared to say, "S&W quality has gone done hill."

For a number of years I found that the only way to buy a new S&W that worked was to purchase it through the PC.

But now it seems that too has become a joke.


Something I discovered years ago about electronics, was they reduced their quality, letting the customers unknowingly test their product by offering outstanding overnight service, no questions asked, full replacement, free shipping labels, etc., etc....

Sound familiar?

Most people fall for it with, "CS gave me outstanding service!"


I think most of us that post here are avid shooters so we usually find problems.
However, the majority of guns sold are purchased then put in a drawer or closet.
I have actually heard people say, "I've owned that revolver for 13 years and I've never had a problem."
When I asked how many times they have shot it they cant remember ever firing it.

I picked up a 4 inch Ruger GP-100 about a year ago and have been tickled with it. Nary a problem, built like a brick, I can change the front sight by simply pushing a pin and it is accurate!

I still own a couple of old S&W"S.

 

[rwsmith]

It's been my contention.....

S & W is using their customers as their QC department. Ship it. If it doesn't come back, it's good. If it does come back, they'll fix it.

 

[28gauge]

The harder you inspect, the more issues you find. You have to look at many pieces to find one without endshake, with a straight ejector rod and with a cylinder gap that you can't drive a truck through that's equal on both sides. By the way, it's not just Smith and Wesson. SIG for example has really gone down hill in quality just in the last 5 to 8 years. Triggers with creep and slide to frame fit so loose they rattle. Hold on to anything you have that's put together well!

 

[Rick_A]

I haven't come across such problems very often myself. I think some folks just seem to be magnets for problem guns.

A lot of the nick, ding, and rust problems are handling and storage issues that could have happened anywhere along the way.

"Stare at the barrel and you miss all the heavenly glory"...or something like that...

 

[peterthefish]

I haven't come across such problems very often myself. I think some folks just seem to be magnets for problem guns.



A lot of the nick, ding, and rust problems are handling and storage issues that could have happened anywhere along the way.



"Stare at the barrel and you miss all the heavenly glory"...or something like that...

I may just be unlucky. I also tend to order online chasing low price, and take what I can get. When I want a gun, I don't spend months looking for one. I find the lowest cost one available and buy it. My last 3 new revolvers from S&W have all needed work. This and the other 629 went back. The gun would hardly close because the back of the extractor star was too long and dragged on the shield. My 929 I took care of on my own.

Most of my shooting these days is competitive, or practice in preparation for competition. The guns I buy get shot a lot or move along in short order. I have no problems with honest wear, dings, and a little rust from shooting in the rain. I store my guns in gun socks in a heated safe which tends to prevent storage damage.

I'm sure looking hard enough anyone can find something wrong. For me, a cylinder thats finicky opening / closing is a problem. A scratch, canted barrel, or a larger than ideal BC gap isn't, as long as the gun will do 3-4" at 25 yards. A sideplate that's not installed flush is a recipe for some big gashes on my fingers when I'm shooting for sub 2.5 second reloads. And frankly, I'm not going to take the chance that it was damaged during install as well as being jammed in place. And don't even get me started on the cranes being softer than the screw that holds it in place. This is about 5 months of wear on my 627 crane since it was replaced.



I expect it'll be time to go back by March of next year again as the screw stops retaining the crane altogether.

 

[peterthefish]

Just updating this thread. Got the gun back today - 3 weeks doorstep to doorstep - not bad IMO. They fit a new cylinder and center pin, removed the rust, properly installed the side plate, and refinished the gun. Unfortunately the forcing cone looks like it was filed to fit the new cylinder and is ugly as all get out - but overall a positive and speedy resolution.

 

[Hopper]

Sheesh, this whole thread is a bit upsetting. I have a new 686 3" shipping to my FFL dealer, hopefully I'll have it by the end of next week. I'm crossing fingers I'm not the magnet some of you guys are. However, 2 of my 3 S&W revolvers have had to go back home, one due to a badly canted barrel, the other due to trigger "knuckling" just before the hammer broke. To be fair, both were repaired to my satisfaction, but it still was souring to have to send a brand-new gun back for service.

 

[dwever]

S & W is using their customers as their QC department. Ship it. If it doesn't come back, it's good. If it does come back, they'll fix it.

Respectfully, baloney.

Sheesh, this whole thread is a bit upsetting.

This is a skewed neighborhood Bro.

There are 167,000+ members on this forum, and at the time of this post there were 523 members on board with almost four times that many as guests. You get to evenings and weekends and those numbers blow-up.

The problematic gets the press here understandably because people want advice and empathy. How often is a person's first-ever post a 911 or 411 post regarding a problem?

In S&W I have or have had a J Frame .38 (1975), three 627's (2007 - 2015), a 586 L-Comp (2015) a 629 (2008), two 1911's (2008 - 2010), and a 617 (ca. 2005). All of those were Performance Center weapons except one 1911, the J-frame, and the 617. My first two 627's, my 629, and one 1911 were special ordered in sight unseen. NOTHING has gone back for a problem. I've NEVER had a malfunction with a S&W revolver and I compete with two of the 627's. One 627 went to TK Custom to take the action from good to best and to get the charge holes ramped for competition; and the 586-L Comp also got the action job and a brighter night-sight as I'm qualified with it at my agency.

My guess is I'm not lucky, I'm just within the statistical median and mean.

Peace

 

[Hopper]

This is a skewed neighborhood Bro.

Agreed, and true, message boards can be a spotlight. That IS quite a list of successful acquisitions you have! Seriously, thanks for this, I am at peace now while I await delivery.

 

[Old cop]

I had a run of bad luck w/a new Ruger, Springfield, Glock & Smith. Back in Feb. I purchased a new M&P .380 that is perfect. I bought the last gun at Gander Mountain b/c they offer an additional one year warranty, for $25, which I happily paid. I'll be shooting the heck out of this gun before the warranty runs out.

 

[peterthefish]

I had a run of bad luck w/a new Ruger, Springfield, Glock & Smith. Back in Feb. I purchased a new M&P .380 that is perfect. I bought the last gun at Gander Mountain b/c they offer an additional one year warranty, for $25, which I happily paid. I'll be shooting the heck out of this gun before the warranty runs out.

S&W has a lifetime service policy. While they have a "1 Year Limited Warranty" they will fix the gun for the life of the owner...

Looks like GM shafted you...

 

[BoulderTroll]

By the way, it's not just Smith and Wesson. SIG for example has really gone down hill in quality just in the last 5 to 8 years.

Boy, I sure can't agree with that statement. Remington and Smith and Wesson are the two companies that I've most noticed going down hill over the years. SIG has actually done the opposite. SIG were phenomenal back in the 80's and early 90's, went very downhill in the mid-late 90's, and have made a stellar comeback in the last 5-8 years. I've bought 5 new SIG's in the last 3 years and they have all been every bit as good as my original German made pistols. The recent SIG quality has been top notch. Of course there are still lemons, every company will put out lemons from time to time. I'm strictly speaking to their reputation and quality in general.