It has been alleged . . .

[dubshooter]

So someone else is going to walk up to me, reach for my appendix rig and pull the trigger? One reason I like appendix or 3 clock carry is due to easier weapon retention. I have a bad right shoulder and have a hard time reaching around behind me. Add in that trying to retain a weapon against someone trying to pull-up against me?

And if your thumb safety and grip safety don't work on your 1911, you shouldn't be carrying it. Every time you clean your firearm you should be doing a functions check, which includes safety. So that wouldn't be your gunsmith letting you down, that would be YOU letting yourself down.

 

[rednichols]

So someone else is going to walk up to me, reach for my appendix rig and pull the trigger? One reason I like appendix or 3 clock carry is due to easier weapon retention. I have a bad right shoulder and have a hard time reaching around behind me. Add in that trying to retain a weapon against someone trying to pull-up against me?

And if your thumb safety and grip safety don't work on your 1911, you shouldn't be carrying it. Every time you clean your firearm you should be doing a functions check, which includes safety. So that wouldn't be your gunsmith letting you down, that would be YOU letting yourself down.

Oh for chrissake. This thread is (unofficially) closed.

 

[dubshooter]

I guess what I am mostly confused about in all of this is the fear of the gun going off while holstered. If the holster is made in a way that it can be fired while on your belt without you doing something to make it happen, I wouldn't carry it in any position.

 

[eb07]

You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks .

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.

So what you are saying is that carrying appendix is unsafe?

This is my .02

Shouldn't the argument be that unsafe handling of the weapon while carrying appendix is unsafe due to the proximity of the muzzle to the femoral artery.

Finishing up with most of the accidents that have occurred while carrying appendix were either due to improper or unsafe handling or defective and or lack of proper holsters.

The professional training market and holster technology coming out is geared a lot towards appendix carry is not because it is a new method of carry but it has gained popularity in the past 10 years because it has not only been proven to be safe with a proper holster and belt, but a great way to conceal and retain/access your firearm in a struggle. So in reality 4:00 is the "old" way if you look at the market trends.

Handling firearms are unsafe. If you are uncomfortable with your gear or proficiency handling a firearm then maybe you need to look at your training methods and seek out professional training to build your confidence to carry the best way you feel comfortable and not demeaning one way or the other. I'm not saying YOU are just pointing it out for the sake of the debate on carry method. It's clear you don't like appendix carry. Then carry your way and be happy.

I embrace new tech and new methods. SOme work for me, some don't. But I'm not going to blow it off until I try it.

The RDS is a perfect example. A few people started marketing them and were met with disdain from the iron sight crowd.... look now it is all the rage and the tech and demand is growing.

Look at how the firearm stance has evolved.

I love capitalism, I love new things, and I love new methods. Whatever works for you may not work for me, that doesn't make it more right or wrong. I have been carrying this way since before it was popular. that's how my dad carried UC when he was in dope and he turned me onto it but of course I had to try it myself. I did FoF training many moons ago in a small group of like minded firearms enthusiasts who wanted to break away from the traditional gunsite method ( and yes I trained at and followed J.C. - and he is why I love the 10mm) when I was in the military and I tried it and low and behold that was the carry method I found to work best for me after my experiences.

It's like 9mm vs 45. Glock vs 1911. Revolver vs Semi. The correct answer is they are all right if you are happy, safe, and proficient.

 

[uncleted327]

Knowing how to make an item doesn't make that person some wise oracle on its use. A blacksmith can forge a sword, that doesn't mean he has the slightest clue how to use it. After reading the OP's three related posts my general takeaway is that he doesn't like appendix carry and doesn't like striker fired guns, or at least finds them somehow less safe to carry. Now I've owned and carried lots of holsters for lots of guns and can't say I have a single one that a third party could somehow fire in my holster, at any position. Also if my holster or firearm are not in optimal working condition it's MY fault, not my holster makers or my gunsmiths. If you don't like striker fired guns then don't carry one. If you don't like appendix carry don't carry that way. If you are a holster maker and choose not to make holsters for that method, that's your choice. But stop preaching to everyone else trying to tell us we're wrong because our opinion differs from yours.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Oh for chrissake. This thread is (unofficially) closed.

I guess I don't understand your position at all . . .

 

[Muss Muggins]

Dude, I carry a 442 left handed, in what would be appendix carry if I was right handed, but it's on the left side. It's hidden, easy to access, and safe. I like it. I've been carrying a gun for 30+ years. I've looked at a bunch of alternatives, and carried them all for a while. Picked this one. What's you beef with that? You're starting to sound like my grampa shouting at the neighbor's lawn . . .

You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks .

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.

 

[Watchdog]

Knowing how to make an item doesn't make that person some wise oracle on its use... stop preaching to everyone else trying to tell us we're wrong because our opinion differs from yours.

 

[dubshooter]

From what I gather his gripe isn't about holsters or guns but training issues. Don't carry appendix because you will put your finger on the trigger the second the trigger is out of the holster and shoot your femoral.

Like I said. Training. Not gun. Not holsters.

But I could be wrong.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

"...your bad choice", "a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks..."

I don't know that I'd want to be promoted to God and lay judgement on everyone else! It must be a burden to have the only brain on the planet, trying to guide we poor, misguided souls.

Man, buy a vowel and chill out! I can't take any more of this obsession.

Over and out!!!

 

[SailDesign]

All this ^^^ makes me doubly glad I don't carry.

(It's a personal choice, nothing more)

 

[Watchdog]

Given that it was NEVER done in the 20th century with autos or revolvers...

I just found out it's true that one's mouth actually does drop open in amazement upon hearing a self-professed "expert" make a statement like that.

 

[eb07]

Rule #1: Guns go bang when you pull the trigger and bad things happen in the bullets path

Rule #2: See rule #1

 

[Wise_A]

You didn't think through my post at all. The person pulling the trigger is not the wearer; remember this all came up because of a third party pulling the trigger? In my 'Schroedinger's (sp?) Cat' proposed experiment, 'we' will holster and someone else will pull the trigger. We'll use blanks .

Let's suppose my gunsmith has completely let me down. My thumb safety doesn't work, my grip safety doesn't work, and my pistol goes off. Same result: at 4:00 I will get a powder burn, you will be in hospital (hopefully) wishing you could change your bet!

Seriously, though, my post isn't about worrying for you all. I completely respect your right to make a choice. I just refuse to enable your bad choice and so I found a way to absolutely prevent it: my designs don't work in those positions. How about a little respect for 'walking the talk', eh?

What I DO wonder (I'm not 'shouting', it's just simpler than selecting to underline): if as I propose, a fully aware person, intellectually, does not take unnecessary risks, what has changed that belly carry has become necessary; that it, no other location will suffice?

Comments on that would be appreciated, rather than the 'seat belt defence' ('I drove cars for thirty years without seat belts and didn't die, I don't need them now'): personally I drove cars for thirty years without airbags without dying, which doesn't prove anything at all.

So if all you care about is the position of the gun--why did you bother to write a whole exercise trying to bash everything that isn't a 1911?

Also, if you're going to tout that "unnecessary risk" nonsense, then we'd better all stop buying Series 70s. The half-cock notch is not enough!

 

[ColbyBruce]

I have several Bianchi and DeSantis holsters designed by rednichols. I like his designs, appreciate his expertise with gun leather (I do not care for Kydex), and enjoy reading his opinions (and most everyone elses) on the subject. Regardless, I am still going to do it the way that suits me best.

Every time I log on to this forum I learn something.

 

[LAA]

I read about the Aussie critters causing problems on the roads there.
Come visit us for a ride here in the Smoky Mountains. Avoid riding at dusk and dawn for the deer, and the rest of the day it feels like a private playground.

How do you feel about canted cross-draw carry?

I thought those deer should be taking a nap in the middle of the day, too................until one took a flying leap off a mountainside, sailed over the left lane, and touched down at the base of my front wheel, as I was doing 65 mph. This was around 3:00 in the afternoon, on a hot July day. It all takes less than a second.

As I hit center mass, the front wheel was pushed into the engine of my 800 lb. bike. I was vaulted over the windshield, just as seat belt less drivers are ejected from cars, and was appropriately damaged. Happily, wore a full face helmet that day, considering I usually bagged it for cross country rides.

On the other hand, this was a mule deer from the Rockies. May be different in the Smoky's. Some of my semi's have a safety, and some don't.

 

[keith44spl]

If one does not know how their personal carry firearm operates.....

Maybe they shouldn't be carrying one in any position.

Gee Wiz.


.

 

[Scorpion520AZ]

I saw many an armed "professional" carrying IWBA in the late 70s, early 80s, in "Summer Special" holsters from Bruce Nelson and Milt Sparks.

That said, IWBA carry was "not recommended for newbies and/or amateurs". Yes, I carried IWBA in certain circumstances, back then a Full-Size, all-steel Colt Government Model.

We actually went thru one part of a training course where the target was only visible from the waist down. We were trained to aim for the "heart below the waist", the femoral artery.

On a personal note, without going into details, I was once about 100 feet from a man who took one handgun bullet to his femoral artery, a direct hit. I had seen men shot before and since, but I've never seen a single handgun bullet cause so much blood to pump out of a human being so fast. In the seconds it took me to reach him, for all practical purposes, he was dead. That image left me with a healthy, cautious respect for IWBA Carry.

I'm not opposed to IWBA Carry, but I still believe the instructors back then had it right, "Not recommended for newbies and/or amateurs".

Stay Safe Everyone

 

[mbok]

In my crime reporting years I occasionally saw cases where armed robbers blew off various appendages from jamming their handguns down into their waistbands during the crime or in getaway stage. (Always occasion for a good law enforcement laugh I might add.) It was pretty much always an appendix carry situation, though I recall one goober who stuffed his .25 auto in his back pocket, jumped back in the getaway car and somehow triggered off a round that perforated his gluteous maximus.

Also saw a few accidental discharges from holstering weapons carried OWB, usually at around 3 o'clock, and those usually resulted in just a hole in the floor and lots of embarrassment or at worst a painful graze wound.

Never been too comfortable with the whole appendix carry thing from hearing some thugs sing permanent soprano.

 

[Neumann]

Everybody has their own concept of "best" for a holster. It's always a combination of comfort, conceivability and accessibility

I can't sit or bend comfortably carrying in the appendix (1:00) position. To draw a pistol holstered in this position requires a mid-course reversal to clear and present. Nor does it have any advantage while driving. The only time I've seen appendix carry in practice is for plain-clothesed police, who don't care if (perhaps prefer to be) seen armed. Often as not, the holster has a badge carrier.

I'm happy with 4:00 carry, which for me is comfortable, accessible, and when standing, easily accessible. 4:00 refers to where it sits at the belt line. The grip is forward and tightly pressed to my side. When I reach for something on a shelf, I use my left hand, but printing is never a problem unless I bend at the waist (which I don't do when carrying).

4:00 is not very accessible when driving, but okay in a pinch. I use a shoulder holster when weather permits. It conceals under a light vest or jacket and is reachable sitting or standing.

An alternative would be cross-draw except for one thing. In a CQB situation, a shoulder or cross-draw holster is facing the threat, and more easily seized or deflected. At 4:00, you turn so the pistol is away from the threat, and put your weak hand in a defensive position.

That is my rationale, and what I practice. YMMV.