J-frame: Enough?

[oink]

Only one time I wished I had more. Me and the wife were leaving downtown st Louis late at night and we took a wrong turn and all of a sudden the street was crowded with people. Would have felt better with a hi cap 9 and a bag of mags.

Well, 30+ years ago I carried a J frame off duty in the St. Louis area, until I bought the then just released 669 (On duty back-up was a Backup ). I sure as heck wouldn't be wandering around St. Louis now days with only a J frame, if I had a better alternative. The tone of the neighborhoods changes quickly. I have a 9mm stashed up there now waiting for my next return visit as that sure beats the airport hassle. The J frame was the cats meow, until better stuff came along. Don't misunderstand and think I'm a 9mm fanatic. I actually prefer things that start with a 4. But whatever floats your boat.

 

[TomkinsSP]

...IF the semiauto was NOT superior, it would have likely never been invented.

Like the Ford Pinto?

 

[JH1951]

I feel adequately equipped for normal self-defense situations with my 649.
If you are expecting a firefight, seriously, find another route or stay home.
If I am going to dangerous places and cannot avoid it, I will likely take my shortie 1911, but that is a rare occasion.

 

[shouldazagged]

My only carry gun since 2000 has been a 640 no-dash with the older (hotter) version of the FBI load or the Buffalo Bore equivalent. I've always felt adequately protected, partly because of avoiding dicey places and dicey people. No bars, for one thing.

Now, in old age and declining health, and no longer driving, I feel even more comfortable carrying the J-fame.

 

[Protected One]

Some people only look for information that supports their choice when they should also be questioning it.

That is the most profound statement I have read this week!

I ask for evidence supporting a realistic need to carry a higher capacity weapon with quick reloads, nobody provides any and I have yet been unable to find anything definitive or substantial myself.

I can provide some evidence along those lines if you're still looking.

 

[Mister X]

I can provide some evidence along those lines if you're still looking.

Absolutely.

 

[max503]

Well, 30+ years ago I carried a J frame off duty in the St. Louis area, until I bought the then just released 669 (On duty back-up was a Backup ). I sure as heck wouldn't be wandering around St. Louis now days with only a J frame, if I had a better alternative. The tone of the neighborhoods changes quickly. I have a 9mm stashed up there now waiting for my next return visit as that sure beats the airport hassle. The J frame was the cats meow, until better stuff came along. Don't misunderstand and think I'm a 9mm fanatic. I actually prefer things that start with a 4. But whatever floats your boat.

North St. Louis is not a place you want to be exploring at night.
In CC class they told us don't go any place with a gun that you wouldn't go without a gun. We ended up there by mistake.

 

[fredj338]

Some people do indeed get defensive, but some folks like me want to discuss and debate the issue to determine the validity of their thinking and their choice. Just as not all opinions are equally valid, nor do I think all weapon choices are when it comes to personal defense. I like hearing alternative points of view to see if my perspective holds up to challenges. An individual should be able to articulate the reasons why they chose the weapon they carry and point to evidence and facts that support it.

In terms of military and police use, the auto is superior for the most part, but that's not what is being discussed here.

Some people only look for information that supports their choice when they should also be questioning it. Who knows, maybe I'll decide I'm wrong at some point and start carrying a Glock, but anytime I ask for evidence supporting a realistic need to carry a higher capacity weapon with quick reloads, nobody provides any and I have yet been unable to find anything definitive or substantial myself.

There are plenty of instances of multiple attackers on unarmed victims. you don't have to do much extrapolation to figure out more gun/ammo would be better than less.

 

[fredj338]

Like the Ford Pinto?

Nice try but the pinto was not an invention but a spin off of something already out, a car.
Hey I love revolvers, my first gun was a m19 & I still have it 42y later, that & dozens of others, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the superiority of a semi in just about any defensive situation. Yes even at contact distances. Where the revo really shines is raw horsepower as in the 41, 44 & heavy 45cotl offerings. Notice & did not include 357amg, one of my favorites, but the 10mm is pretty much a 357mag on steroids & we have the 357sig.
Reality, most people carry a gun to feel comfy. many have little skill to use it or even deploy it quickly enough to defend themselves in violent surprise attack. many will miss more than they will land so 5 shot j-frame may be just fine for feeling comfy but very few would actually choose one if they new they had a high chance of being involved in a gunfight.

 

[oink]

North St. Louis is not a place you want to be exploring at night.
In CC class they told us don't go any place with a gun that you wouldn't go without a gun. We ended up there by mistake.

I've lived in St Louis and in St.Charles Co. I've spent a lot of time in St. Louis. Met wife and married there. If you live in St. Louis or even greater St. Louis (mainly St. Louis County) you can't navigate the metro area without going through areas you'd want to be well armed in should you have a flat. That's just the way it is.

The St.Louis metro area is made up of, in addition to St.Louis City proper, many smaller municipalities that in most places would be part of the city proper. Think Ferguson and many like it. All with their own PDs of wildly varying competence. Go to the mall and cross sketchy areas. Go to the doctor and cross sketchy areas. Go to the West End and cross sketchy areas. Go to Ted Drewes and cross sketchy areas. Go to the stadium and cross sketchy areas. You get the idea.

I actually like St. Louis. Yeah, a snubbie 38 special is probably enough, but maybe not. Isn't the maybe not exactly why you carry to start with. Everyone has to make their own compromises. My compromise scale is obviously different from most here.

However, unless things have changed drastically, you were probably better off taking a wrong turn on that side of the river than just across it. My wife still has the nice scar from the innocent (mostly) wrong turn she and friends took across the river in IL in the late 70s. The bullet missed her but the shrapnel from the glass caused by the bullet didn't.

PS: And, by the way, it was probably some rascally Illinoisan that stole my motorcycle in Edwardsville.

 

[Mister X]

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the superiority of a semi in just about any defensive situation. Yes even at contact distances.

Care to explain?

 

[les.b]

Every time you guys talk about traveling through St Louis, all I can think about is the scene from "Vacation":

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hwBoa-NbNL8[/ame]

Best Regards, Les

 

[hkcavalier]

If you studied the Miami shootout then you would know that FBI agent Benjamin Grogan was armed with a Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm and was killed by a .223 in the chest. The other agent, Ronald Risner fired off 14 rounds from his S&W 459 and a couple rounds from his backup mod 60 revolver and survived. The other 6 agents were armed with S&W revolvers and a shotgun. The two bad guys had two 357 magnum revolvers and a Ruger mini 14. 2 agents killed, 2 bad guys killed, 5 injured.

The type of guns used had nothing to do with the outcome. Other than the fact that if you know you're going into a gunfight, bring a rifle.

Sure. If Platt and Matix had both had HK91s or FALs and 6-10 mags, there would have been a lot more dead agents. So, yes, the type of gun is important.

Unfortunately the nice thick book I have on the shootout is at home, but I'm 100% sure that more than one agent came only armed with a L or K frame (686 or 13) plus a J frame backup. We clearly both agree that you bring a rifle to an extended gunfight with multiple bad guys, not two wheelguns, even in 1986.

 

[WR Moore]

I didn't vote either because, it depends. There's a lot of variables, one makes one's choices. Would not be my first choice. Nor, come to think about it, my second choice.

Couple of variables off the top of my head: number of assailants, presence of bystanders/unseen locals who may become agitated, speed of LE response, does your cell phone (you do have it with you, right?) connect directly to the local LE agency. The list can go on.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I can provide some evidence along those lines if you're still looking.

Absolutely.

In Tom Givens book "Fighting Smarter", starting at page 99, of the 60+ student shootings he gathered info on, the average number of rounds fired was 3.8. The min was 1 and the max was 12. His quote is "there were several in the 8 to 12 range" (which also means there were a lot of 2's and 3's).

~5% of the self defense shootings were 3 yards or less. ~5% were over 7 yards. ~90% were 3 to 7 yards.

The curve is skewed right. It would be interesting to have the actual data to calculate the probability for shots above 5.

While I feel comfortable carrying my 640, his info is one of the reasons I decided that a Ruger LCP makes a better speed strip than the Bianchi ones.

 

[TomkinsSP]

My wife and I always get into this argument before we leave the house. I say she should carry the MG34 and one 50 round drum in her purse, while I carry the second barrel and two 250 round cans in my back pack. She claims that my offer to hold the bipod as she fires off my shoulder is just an excuse to wear earplugs 24/7/365.

So we usually just carry my M640 and her M49 and a couple speed strips to be reasonable, to always carry a weapon that can be readily deployed and to maintain the peace in the family.

If you ALWAYS carry a G22 or a 70series, that is great, if you SOMETIMES carry a G19, JMO you are better off ALWAYS carrying a Seecamp or RM380.

 

[gman51]

This question comes around almost as often as the caliber question.
Whether any gun is enough depends on the situation which we wonder can we really prepare in the best way for.

Any gun you can shoot accurately and comfortably carry should be enough gun. If you are in a shoot out then no matter what handgun you are carrying it probably will not be enough.

In my opinion a 38 spl in a snub is enough for self protection. You possibly will not go deaf shooting a 38 spl but shooting a 357 magnum is another story. Perhaps we need think when is a gun more than enough.

 

[Whitwabit]

Have thought about carrying my Smith & Wesson 642 .38 Special 5-shot snub-nose revolver as my primary carry gun in a pocket holster.

How many of you think that setup would be enough for realistic self defense, or should I get a bigger gun with more capacity or a different caliber?

Thanks!

-Jay

What is the crime like in Los Vegas ?? are there many street robberies or are there drive by shootings happening regularly ?? If those answers are yes .. Yes you might .. if
you live in sleepy town USA then probably no ..

I live in the center of the state of Illinois .. about half way between St Louis and Chicago .. We get Perps from both places hiding out from the law there, here .. We have had several Perp's from those areas and others areas killed here in the Peoria area ..

I carry a Beretta PX4 Sub Compact 13+1with an extra mag on my off side .. And wonder when there have been multiple people killed there if I am under gunned .. and if I should be carrying something with 17 rounds and an extra mag .. I have to frequent across the river for shopping and several of my doctors are there ..

So really depends on where you are and what the crime is like in the areas you frequent !!

And I know what everyone says that the statistic say most self defense use of a pistol is under three rounds under 5 feet ..

But what if you are not A STATISTIC and are one where more then 5 rounds are needed on multiple Perp's with guns ..

Are you willing to take that chance ?? on a five shot ??

I'm not because of where I live !!!

 

[max503]

I've lived in St Louis and in St.Charles Co. I've spent a lot of time in St. Louis. Met wife and married there. If you live in St. Louis or even greater St. Louis (mainly St. Louis County) you can't navigate the metro area without going through areas you'd want to be well armed in should you have a flat. That's just the way it is.

The St.Louis metro area is made up of, in addition to St.Louis City proper, many smaller municipalities that in most places would be part of the city proper. Think Ferguson and many like it. All with their own PDs of wildly varying competence. Go to the mall and cross sketchy areas. Go to the doctor and cross sketchy areas. Go to the West End and cross sketchy areas. Go to Ted Drewes and cross sketchy areas. Go to the stadium and cross sketchy areas. You get the idea.

I actually like St. Louis. Yeah, a snubbie 38 special is probably enough, but maybe not. Isn't the maybe not exactly why you carry to start with. Everyone has to make their own compromises. My compromise scale is obviously different from most here.

However, unless things have changed drastically, you were probably better off taking a wrong turn on that side of the river than just across it. My wife still has the nice scar from the innocent (mostly) wrong turn she and friends took across the river in IL in the late 70s. The bullet missed her but the shrapnel from the glass caused by the bullet didn't.

PS: And, by the way, it was probably some rascally Illinoisan that stole my motorcycle in Edwardsville.

I would love to have a hi cap 9mm but darn it, I just can't buy every thing I want. Next time I go to STL I'm taking my usual S&W 638 AND my Taurus 605.
Why did God give me two front pockets if He didn't want me to carry guns in them?
Or else I could put the S&W in a pocket and the Taurus on my hip.

 

[Protected One]

It would be great to have a compiled list of ALL the self-defense shootings from year to year - including accurate information on how many rounds were fired. That would enable us to calculate percentages and determine "optimal" (and by default, less than optimal) number of rounds to carry. But even then it would STILL depend on what type of situation one found themselves in as to whether they were sufficiently armed, and that is an *unknowable* variable.

Even in quiet, low-crime areas the possibility of a situation that requires more than 5 rounds exist. Conversely, crime ridden areas have many situations that are solved by LESS than 5 rounds. So who can say?

In my opinion what it all comes down to is that personal decision on how much risk one is willing to take on 5 rounds being enough. My hope is that we will never know if we're right or wrong.