Jammed Revolver ?!? Stop Short-Stroking

[413Maxwedge]

1st off, I am no expert gunsmith. And I am new to revolvers. My only experience is 20 years with shotguns, including the past 8 as an NRA - Certified Shotgun Instructor with BSA clearances. I shoot trap and have recently gotten into revolvers.

In the past month I have purchased three S&W revolvers. A 43C (.22) for my son and wife to target practice, a 640-3 (.38/.357) for home defense and target, and a 340 M&P (.38/.357) for daily carry and target.

The 640 and 340 have both "locked up" in less than 100 shots. Once each. They just stopped firing, with the trigger, release button and cylinder freezing in place. This only happened once with each of these .38/.357 guns, but it did happen, with less than 100 shots through them.

I bought revolvers because I wanted my gun(s) to be simple and reliable. I work in the worst parts of the city, opening and closing the gates before anyone else gets there. I've seen my guys get car-jacked and mugged for wallet/phone.

I'm not giving my truck/wallet/keys to some 15yo kid with a plastic gun. I'm not dying without a fight either.

So why are my new $800 "simple and reliable" guns jamming???
I looked all over Google, and found all kinda issues with worn-out guns. Loose ejector rods. Broken firing pins. Broken springs. loose primers in reloaded ammo. Etc..

But my guns aren't old or worn-out. They're brand freaking new with new, quality ammo.. Then I found it....

Short stroking. I think I've been firing too fast (practicing a self defense 3-shot ) and jamming up the actions. The pins are not damaged. The ejector rods are not loose. Everything is clean and operational. So what else could it be?

Comments welcome.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Short stroking is where you don't let the trigger reset all the way forward. Then it won't pull back. If you then let it go all the way forward, it resets and you're back in operation. This is only a momentary thing and does not affect the opening of the cylinder unless you are still holding the trigger in the locked up position.

The only thing I can think of with this information is that maybe you're shooting a heavy enough load that a bullet sometimes creeps forward from recoil and comes out the front of the cylinder a little bit, jamming against the side of the barrel extension.

 

[Old cop]

I’ve been shooting revolvers since 1968 and never had this happen to me or even heard of it. Someone said something about a bullet jumping crimp and that’s about the only thing I can see might cause your problem.

 

[413Maxwedge]

Hmm, alright then I'm stumped again. After 30 seconds of messing with it they will "break loose" and be fine again, and fire the rest of the rounds. But while it's happening the trigger, cylinder and release button are all frozen in place. The 640-3 did it while dry-firing A-zoom snap caps, and the 340 did it at the range with Winchester DEFENSE .38+P, then fired the remaining rounds.

I don't think any of the bullets came loose in the shells. Something in the action is jamming from simply using it, even with snap caps.

 

[s&wchad]

I'd take them apart and give the internals a good cleaning and light lubrication. If you're not comfortable doing that, pull the grips, spray action cleaner inside, blow the excess out with an air hose and follow up with a light spray of oil.

 

[scooter123]

1) Azoom Snap caps do have a lifespan, for the 38 Special variant it's about 250 strikes. What will happen is the rim will seperate and the body of the Snap cap will get thrown into the forcing cone which will jam the revolver up solid. Note a push with a simple wooden pencil will put that snap cap back into the cylinder at which point you can work the cylinder open. Note, that rim can present an extra bit of metal and make opening the cylinder a bit of a challenge.

2) S&W really needs to spend a thin dime and install a trigger top rod in the cylinder rebound block in all of their revolvers. Because then the trigger toggle gets over stroked it will cause a jam as described when the trigger is manipulated quickly. I have a model 36 that was made in 1962 that did this every single time I stroked the trigger quickly in Double action. To free it up wiggling the trigger front/back and up/down with the muzzle pointed downrange would work it free. Yeah, not something comfortable to do with loads in the cylinder. Be VERY CAREFUL of hand placement while doing this. The solution for this is a bit of drill bit shank of the correct size to slide into the Rebound Spring than can provide a trigger stop that prevents over stroking the trigger. Take note this will have to be fitted to the action and and you will want that stop rod length needs to be at the point where it stops the trigger just after the Single Action break point, BTW this is in the range of 0.002 to 0.003 inches after the trigger clears the SA notch. I will also note that the JM 625 featured a trigger stop rod from the Factory and I suspect that is due to Jerry Miculek's input on this model.

 

[ken158]

Have any “trigger jobs” been done to these revolvers? I find it very interesting that you have two revolvers that cause you problems when most have never experienced this phenomenon.

 

[alwslate]

If your revolvers don't lock up when firing them double action at a slower rate, making sure that you don't short stroke them you have solved your problem. You can make just about any mechanical device fail if you try hard enough.

 

[Muley Gil]

1) Azoom Snap caps do have a lifespan, for the 38 Special variant it's about 250 strikes. What will happen is the rim will seperate and the body of the Snap cap will get thrown into the forcing cone which will jam the revolver up solid. Note a push with a simple wooden pencil will put that snap cap back into the cylinder at which point you can work the cylinder open. Note, that rim can present an extra bit of metal and make opening the cylinder a bit of a challenge.

2) S&W really needs to spend a thin dime and install a trigger top rod in the cylinder rebound block in all of their revolvers. Because then the trigger toggle gets over stroked it will cause a jam as described when the trigger is manipulated quickly. I have a model 36 that was made in 1962 that did this every single time I stroked the trigger quickly in Double action. To free it up wiggling the trigger front/back and up/down with the muzzle pointed downrange would work it free. Yeah, not something comfortable to do with loads in the cylinder. Be VERY CAREFUL of hand placement while doing this. The solution for this is a bit of drill bit shank of the correct size to slide into the Rebound Spring than can provide a trigger stop that prevents over stroking the trigger. Take note this will have to be fitted to the action and and you will want that stop rod length needs to be at the point where it stops the trigger just after the Single Action break point, BTW this is in the range of 0.002 to 0.003 inches after the trigger clears the SA notch. I will also note that the JM 625 featured a trigger stop rod from the Factory and I suspect that is due to Jerry Miculek's input on this model.

Once upon a time, most N frame revolvers came with trigger stop rods installed at the factory.

 

[413Maxwedge]

Have any “trigger jobs” been done to these revolvers? I find it very interesting that you have two revolvers that cause you problems when most have never experienced this phenomenon.

No, all of the action parts are original.

 

[413Maxwedge]

If your revolvers don't lock up when firing them double action at a slower rate, making sure that you don't short stroke them you have solved your problem. You can make just about any mechanical device fail if you try hard enough.

Yes I agree. I think I just need to take my time, but that sucks. I'll open them up for a clean and lube.

 

[RetCapt]

I don't know what the problem is, but I too have experienced it.

This happened to me twice while going through the two week FBI range officer school. Our issue revolvers were Smith 66s, which in general were very problematic for us. I had never experienced this before, so I doubted it was me.

I was shooting in PPC matches during this time, using my PPC revolver built up on a Ruger Six series. I shot the entire course double action. Never in all that time did I experience such a stoppage. But I was always aware of what short-stroking could do, so I made sure to never do it.

When it happened to the first 66, I made sure I had not short stroked, but nothing reset and freed up the revolver. Somehow we did get it to work, I think by opening the cylinder and then trying it again. It worked, but I no longer trusted it. I turned it in checked out another 66. A few hundred rounds in and the same thing occurred.

By the time I completed the course I was on my third 66.

I don't know what the armorers found, but no one ever got back to me and suggested pilot error.

Years passed. In the interim we had switched to the 686s, which eliminated the various problems we had with the 66s. To this day, I still hold that the L frame is Smith & Wesson's best .357 magnum revolver.

Still more years passed and we were transitioning from revolvers to semi-autos, in this instance the full size .40 cal Glock (can't remember the model #). One of the features of the Glock is that it can reset without fully releasing the trigger. So the range officers were pushing this. With all my DA revolver experience I was still fully releasing the trigger, just as I would with a revolver. So three young ROs were with me when I was shooting, really getting on me for my dinosaurian tactics. All this time I was shooting the Glock, chewing out the X ring in well within specified times. Inevitably I lost my patience. So I issued a challenge: Pick out your best RO shot. We would then shoot the entire course under time, side by side. If the RO outscored me, I would do whatever it took short stroking to just reset the trigger. If I was top gun, this pressure to short stroke (as it appeared to me) would end. I won decisively and the ROs kept their end of the bargain. I finished out the year with a 100% score, the only one in the dept to do so. I still chuckle about it recalling how three macho young ROs were going to show the antiquated Captain how to shoot. Just did not happen that way.

You can check all the usual suspects. If that does not locate and resolve the problem(s), let Smith & Wesson figure it out.

 

[kraynky]

If the guns are brand new and never "modified" by a previous owner, I suspect some sort of debris from manufacturing is causing it. Cleaning them and lubing everything lightly should fix them. This is why it's recommended to do what you're doing before counting on them to save your life "right out of the box".

It odd that you have two with problems (well, maybe not......I haven't bought a new revolver in quite a while).

With your experience with firearms, I'm certain you know not to use WD40. But somebody down the road may read this that doesn't know WD will leave a dried up mess that can cause its own problems.

Keep up posted on what you discover. Hopefully it can be corrected without a trip back to the mothership.

 

[alwslate]

You seem to be fixated on the need to fire your revolvers as fast as humanly possible for self defense. Why?

 

[Well Armed]

The fact that it's happening with two different revolvers tells me that it's most probable that the issue is with something the OP is doing wrong, the ammo, or both.

 

[Well Armed]

1st off, I am no expert gunsmith. And I am new to revolvers. My only experience is 20 years with shotguns, including the past 8 as an NRA - Certified Shotgun Instructor with BSA clearances. I shoot trap and have recently gotten into revolvers.

In the past month I have purchased three S&W revolvers. A 43C (.22) for my son and wife to target practice, a 640-3 (.38/.357) for home defense and target, and a 340 M&P (.38/.357) for daily carry and target.

The 640 and 340 have both "locked up" in less than 100 shots. Once each. They just stopped firing, with the trigger, release button and cylinder freezing in place. This only happened once with each of these .38/.357 guns, but it did happen, with less than 100 shots through them.

I bought revolvers because I wanted my gun(s) to be simple and reliable. I work in the worst parts of the city, opening and closing the gates before anyone else gets there. I've seen my guys get car-jacked and mugged for wallet/phone.

I'm not giving my truck/wallet/keys to some 15yo kid with a plastic gun. I'm not dying without a fight either.

So why the F are my new $800 "simple and reliable" guns jamming???
I looked all over Google, and found all kinda issues with worn-out guns. Loose ejector rods. Broken firing pins. Broken springs. loose primers in reloaded ammo. Etc..

But my guns aren't old or worn-out. They're brand freaking new with new, quality ammo.. Then I found it....

Short stroking. I think I've been firing too fast (practicing a self defense 3-shot ) and jamming up the actions. The pins are not damaged. The ejector rods are not loose. Everything is clean and operational. So what else could it be?

Comments welcome.

What ammo where you firing in the revolvers when the malfunctions happened?

 

[Brian Parrish]

Concur

I'd take them apart and give the internals a good cleaning and light lubrication. If you're not comfortable doing that, pull the grips, spray action cleaner inside, blow the excess out with an air hose and follow up with a light spray of oil.

I concur with this viewpoint. The trigger return springs should be able to "push" your relaxed finger back as it returns to start. Some grit in the action?

I feel that my trigger finger is separate from the other fingers, or at least I have worked at getting that separation so that when I squeeze the hand the trigger finger is unaffected. I think, please correct me, that most trainers teach you a positive forward stroke as a follow up.

When I have been practicing double taps with my 457 or 6906 then when I go back to the revolver I am tempted to short stroke it.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

 

[Ggunb]

Hot and dirty? Cylinder binding on forcing cone?

 

[413Maxwedge]

What ammo where you firing in the revolvers when the malfunctions happened?

Winchester DEFENSE .38+P (in the M&P 340) and snap-caps in the 640-3.

 

[walter o]

I have a 38/44 (empty )in my hand as i read this if i short stroke it at the right place and keep pressure on the trigger it will LOCK trigger ,hammer &cylinder & cylinder bolt.Let off the trigger and it will move slightly forward and every thing will work. It locks up just as trigger is about to reset and i stop forward motion of trigger,probably .035 from reset point.I should pull side plate to see what is binding but not tonight