Jesse James Schofield just sold...

Murph.
I like talking about the Merwins.
My research consists of my personal observations and Art Phelps book
The 1st and 2nd models both had scoop flutes.
The 3rd model had standard flutes and top strap.
The 4th model had the ribbed barrel and sight as you describe it.
For at least 10 years I looked at every one I could
The number of 1st and 2nd models is pretty low (IMO) so they could easily have been produced in the fist couple of years (1877-1878)
The 3rd models could have been close behind.
We will never know for sure
Mike
 
Patent Reference

iby,
I hate to get into Patent reference. Not that I don't enjoy it but people get bored fast. Patent reference is "very accurate" when it comes to time of application, description of specific design, and Patent approval by specific "date". It's a legal record.

All the research that I have performed on Antique firearms and firearms firms that includes a pretty long list?

I have never once examined, read about, or heard of any firearm patent feature being applied to any firearm "Before" the application process.

In other words once a patent is "Applied for" often also seen as " Patent Pending"? and the early featured improvement or new design can be actually seen manufactured "EARLY" but NEVER before the application of that patent....There is a legal reason for this....It's called ownership of the design. It would be not wise to make something, sell it, and then apply for a patent. You risk someone else stealing it from you. That's why it didn't happen.

In this case on the Model 3? With topstrap? the September Patent of 1882 was "APPLIED FOR" in March of 1882 that clearly states in detail from the inventor....Not just a picture but the "design improvement" is listed in the patent description.

The list of improvements by drawing and written description is "clearly" seen on the suspect gun. the absolute very earliest this gun could have been assembled is "AFTER" patent application of March,1882. That's reaching! as far as a James Gang gun.

The last robbery took place in September of 1881. That's 6 months "before" this design and patent was even "applied for". The Gang was basically done in December of 1881. The rest of the time the gang was either turning themselves in or "hiding out" from the law.

This legal documented patent also 100% backs up Author Charles Carters statement that the topstrap was not included in the model until 1883.

I can go on. We can talk about Major Distributor reference if you're interested? When this gun first shows up in catalogs?


Murph
 
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merwin

Murph.
You have obviously done more researching than I can even imagine.
My research has been anecdotal at best.
Can the patent applied for in 1882 be for some minor variation?
The parts you highlight are included in the very first models???
 
Addiction?

Mike,
It's better than being addicted to drugs I guess?

So, the documented September, 1882 Patent improvements reference helps huge to determine specific features as being first available at a specific time in history...

However, it doesn't help us much as to "how" the gun maker actually applied the design from a timeline perspective. They could have waited years or never used it at all?

By that I mean, When they actually included the patent or if they in fact even used the patent. The way we apply this information is from surviving examples. Since we don't have factory records the concept of Model 1, 2, 3, etc does not apply to this information.

What I'm saying is that just because we see this new patent design on the Model 3 in the drawing? Doesn't mean it wasn't applied to the Model 1 and 2 also. We have no idea, without factory records as to when the Model 1 was discontinued nor the Model 2?

I know that early variations of the Model 1 and some of the Model 2's by serial number (early) had earlier patent designs for the barrel release and locking feature. That's where the late 1870's patents are applied to the design and seen without the 1882 improvement. "Early guns".

So, now we get into the speculation part of the program? Most often we know from collecting that factories typically had an "overlap" in production.

If any model 1's or 2's were still in the factory? Surplus parts? It's more than possible that they would have had this new improved feature applied to their construction prior to being assembled and sold.

They would have to be late serial numbers. You would have to conduct a survey of surviving examples found by serial number to uncover this patent included in the models....When doing so you can then date them as being manufactured after late 1882 by patent reference. Knowing that the features were not available until that time in history. In addition, you can then date those examples that "Lack" the 1882 improved feature as being manufactured "Prior" to late 1882.

That's how you plug it in without Factory records. It's not a guess. It's using legal recorded reference to establish a timeline.

Smith and Wesson would do the same thing. Using up frames from outdated guns until exhausted.

I don't really want to get into the "Patent Stamps" on the Hopkins and Allens, Merwin & Hulberts?

I performed an in depth study of the XL series for my second book that's not published yet? and the stamping of patents used by that company shows many overlaps in production. Proving that many of the early series were actually assembled later. Hey, if it sells who cares if it's old stock?

James Reid did the same thing in 1883. Assembling and Selling 10 year old stock as a "New Model" to pay off creditors prior to going out of business. Clearly proven and seen in this so-called New model having design features that were discontinued from the Market in 1872!


Murph
 
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Quick follow-up

I have too many projects going on right now Mike,

But I just did a quick search and looked at a few dozen Merwin large frames then compared the March 6, 1877 patent seen in photo below with surviving examples?

Also, the improved Sept.1882 patent?

Seems to me that "all" models of the so-called 1,2,3 and 4th models? All seem to have been made post 1881. The claim that they were made in the 1870's is not supported by patent reference. Therefore, in my opinion it didn't happen.

Remember that just because a patent exists doesn't mean it was ever used. The 1871 Swinging link patent is an excellent example. March of 1871? That patent was primarily the swinging link that is not on Hopkins and Allen guns except for the rare XL6 in 41rimfire.( Not referencing the Civil War Era 38rf Navy Patent)

Yet the 1871 patent stamp is seen on "all" early guns. The reason is the "Partial" patent is actually used...That is the vertical base pin release that is patented along with the Swinging link.


I'm guessing here without further research but likely the 1877 patent "needed" an improvement "PRIOR" to production due to a flaw in that design. I see an undersized barrel lock as seen in the drawing at the frame location. The loading gate lacks a button. Just some inadequate knurling at it's base as well as the base barrel release lacks a decent nub to push it back with the thumb.


So I'm suggesting that "All" of the so called early and late models were actually made after 1882. I wouldn't be surprised in the least. All the listings are guesses as far as when these were made...I guess they didn't bother to look at the patents?

Basic stuff.

That's generally what happens when people copy each other's research instead of doing there own homework. You follow them down the wrong road! Just because the gun has an 1877 patent on the barrel doesn't mean it was manufactured in the 1870's! "Match it up with the Patent"!!!

Murph
 

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Sorry Murph. I couldn't help myself.
You are turning me into a researcher LOL
1876 Automatic Second Model Frontier Army
This model was made between 1878 and 1882. It was virtually identical in appearance to the First Model. Inside the change to a shorter cylinder locking bolt was made which eliminated the access plate in the frame below the cylinder. The trigger guard was longer and deeper, the form of the hammer thump grasp was changed. The outside screw heads were made uniform in size. A significant feature is the detent pin in the barrel release lever. It was a result of a recommendation from the U.S. Army Ordnance Board's trial on May 19, 1879. However, this feature was later deemed unnecessary and eliminated on later models.
 
Additional research needed

Hi Mike,
No problemo...It's addicting...Just warning you.

Yeah, more research is definitely needed. I don't doubt that the early models turned out some oddities? I did read about the Army trials and a listed "failure" on the rust test?

I always separate any "Military references" with Industry production related to Civilian variations sold.

What you need to do is find one "early" catalog reference that "Proves" those early models were actually sold to the public? I suspect that they actually weren't.
Not until the improved patent of September 1882 was introduced to the basic design. Likely first manufactured after application in March of 1882 for sale to the general public. That's my guess without more research.

I am performing Distributor catalog research for another subject? so I plugged in the Merwin Frontiers in 44cal(Pocket armys also)

Here is what I found:

Hartley and Graham Circa 1878: NO LISTING

Homer Fisher Catalog circa 1880: NO LISTING

U.S. Cartridge Co catalog Circa: 1881
"NO LISTING"
* So no listing for the Merwin & Hulbert 44 cartridge. That's kinda huge! If the gun was being sold to the general public? The cartridge would be also!

*** NOTE: I did find an early "outside lubricated" 45 Schofield round listed in the 1881 U.S. Cartridge Co. catalog... If that round is out there that early? The Merwin & Hulbert round would also be "IF" the gun was available to the general public...This suggests it wasn't.

Jos. C. Grubb & Co: Circa 1882: NO LISTING

TURNER & ROSS: CIRCA: 1883
This is the earliest listing that I found for the Frontier 44 and Pocket Army as being sold to the General plublic: It is "clearly listed" as "just out" or "just released by Merwin & Hulbert"
** This also backs up that the model 3 with topstrap was not available until 1883 since that is what is shown in the catalog!

Several other Major Distributors list them as well after 1883. See photo's.

Circa: 1887 Lovell finds the Model 4 available along with a full page listing of "all" their revolvers. Very impressive line up.

*** So, this Major Distributor catalog reference research basically backs up all that I posted earlier regarding dates and availability to the public.... What the details are about the model 1 and 2 regarding how many were sold early with "early" 1877 features? I have no idea. They would likely be "extremely rare" if they exist?

*** Also, remember, they "must" depict early features that are found in the 1877 patent drawing. If they have features that match the 1882 patent improvement? They could not have been released until at least March of 1882 since that is when the improved patent was applied for.

Just like the auction listing you posted? It's possible that with the low serial number found on that gun and having the 1882 features? that it was manufactured before patent approval....Likely between March and September of 1882.....That's the "earliest it could have been sold"...

*** Getting back to the James Gang wood board with 44 M&H Frontier Army model 3? All this research only further solidifies that the gun was NOT a James Gang gun. We now have multiple references that conclude the model 3 was not introduced until some time in 1883! That's the earliest! So that gun was introduced "AFTER" the murder of Jesse James!

Murph
 

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Has there been any information released about the purchaser of the "SMITH & WESSON SCHOFIELD REVOLVER ATTRIBUTED TO JESSE"? Was it an individual or a museum?

Inquiring mind wants to know
 
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I saw some solid speculation on another forum that Bill Koch, one of the Koch brothers, bought the Pat Garrett SAA and some other guns in the Bonhams auction. He has been linked to several other high-dollar outlaw artifacts, including the only known photo of Billy the Kid. So that's one possible candidate.
 
Hijacked Thread

I'd like to apologize to the OP.

I guess I got carried away with the research and hijacked the thread.

In keeping with the original post theme?

I still haven't found any evidence that the James Gang used the 45 Schofield revolver in their unlawful activities.

I did however find a "very early" listing for the Schofield 45 round as being available to the general public from The U.S. Cartridge Company circa 1881 See photo below:

If you look closely at the round you can clearly see that it's an early "outside lubricated design" like all Smith and Wesson revolver rounds that were "Commercially" sold from 1870-1887 when the "inside lubricated round" was introduced.

This only proves that the round was actually available in 1881. One year prior to Jesse James murder. So we can clearly say that the Schofield was a viable weapon at that time in history for the general public since you could actually purchase bullets for it. Prior to that time it was a U.S. Army issued firearm with very few that were publicly sold. In my opinion "NOT a viable arm for the early outlaws to use."

Therefore, the "late" gang could have actually used a Schofield revolver at the latter part of the gangs unlawful activities.

Still, the only confirmed guns that were used by the late gang were: The Colt 45 Single Action Army, The Smith & Wesson New Model 3 in 44 Russian, The Colt Conversion in 38 caliber, and the Remington model 1875 44 large frame single action revolver,
And Clarence Hite’s early model Smith & Wesson 44 Russian.

*** Also, if you perform the research? The only actual origin of the 45 Schofield being part of the James Gang that I found was from Jesse James Jr. himself. Who was 5 years old when his father was murdered in 1882. A Schofield is one of the guns that is actually seen on the wood board. That's the same wood board that has an Antique Hopkins and Allen or Merwin & Hulbert that was Manufactured "after" Jesse James was murdered and after the gangs activities had long ended.


Murph
 

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Cartridge availability

My last input on this subject. A search through UMC catalogs finds the first available 45 Schofield round is January of 1880. (Photo 1)
* Unfortunately no drawing of the round in that catalog.

That makes perfect timeline sense when we cross reference research performed by Mr. Jinks that confirms the Schofield revolver went to "Surplus" in early 1880. Fits like a glove.

Earlier searches (Prior to 1880) (Photo 2) finds that the round was "NOT available" for the general public.....Only military arsenal rounds were being manufactured "Prior" to 1880. Those were not sold to the general public and were for the Military only.
So anyone at that early period who owned a Schofield revolver would have to have had access to Frankford arsenal Government rounds. That's actually also clearly documented in early Military communications between the Frankford Arsenal and the Springfield Armory.

This researched information only continues in the same direction as gathered information so far. That the Schofield was not a viable revolver for the general public's use until "after" the first gang was "eliminated" in Northfield in 1876! In fact not until after January 1, 1880.

So, any reference to the gang using the Schofield revolver "Prior" to 1880 at the very earliest, would be a stretch of the imagination in my opinion.

If we just use some insight here? Even if by some miracle they had obtained Military rounds? The gun would still not be a viable tool. Subject to very harsh elements at that time? Dropping them, getting the rounds wet in the rain, etc? You would have to be able to replace rounds that are damaged, lost, or exhausted with new rounds at any given small town...That's the reality in that era. The rounds "had" to be available! Or the gun is worthless!!

NOTE: When you look closely at photo 2? You'll notice that the 45 Colt was also difficult to find in the 1870's. The list of early outside lubricated rounds is what the gang "WAS" using at that time. Early model Smith & Wesson 44 Russians, possibly even 44 Americans, Remington 44's, Colt Conversions in 38 caliber...That's what was available at that time, so that's what they were using!!! It's a no brainer.

Murph
 

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Back to the Merwin 44 for a minute

Mike(iby)

Check out this very early broadsheet. It actually depicts not only an early open-top in 44cal but it clearly shows "early" patent features. The undersized barrel lock that appears square, the knurled barrel release, and the fitting on the rear of the barrel matches the early drawing. So, this would be a Pre-1882 production Frontier open-top 44.

Unfortunately I can't date the drawing. It's not listed.

So, I guess they are out there somewhere in collecting land. I've never seen one.

*** Notice also that they call it : THE NEW ARMY

Murph
 

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merwin

Murph.
This conversation made me dig out this early (11xx) Merwin
Here's a pic

an early ad for a medium frame

circa 1880
 

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Timeline for Merwin Army

Mike,
Let's review our research timeline. This is what we know and is documented.

1879: Army trials...This gun was initially designed and manufactured for "Army trials"
Just like the Schofield, just like the Single Action Army Colt, just like the Remington 44. "All" initiated for Army trials....and generally "NOT AVAILABLE" to the public.

1880-1881: That's the early ad I posted of the "early " patent open top. It not only shows the early design features but also an early title is given to the model: NEW ARMY

1882: March of that year a new patent improvement is applied for in which "ALL" open-tops found on the internet actually have incorporated in their design...Therefore they "MUST BE" no earlier than March of 1882 production.

Now lets plug in this new photo I just found below. Listed as circa 1883...Notice that both models are being sold "AT THE SAME TIME"....the top-strap model 3 is listed as a "NEW MODEL"...yet both of them clearly show the March(application) patent of 1882 features.

The timeline fits like a glove now.... The open-tops were manufactured from 1882(March) until approx mid to late 1883 when the model 3 was introduced as an improvement. That ended the open top production. A clear overlap took place for a short period of time. We don't know exactly when the open tops were terminated but likely they rode it out throughout 1883.

The early variation open top with early patent design? That must have been manufactured but for a very short period of time. Very few made. That would be post army trials 1879 and pre-1882 patent improvement.

You'd have to actually find one.....Good luck!

*** This information is backed up by "Legal Patent reference", Major Distributor catalog reference timeline, and "cartridge availability" listings from period catalogs. All references point in the same direction.

*** NOTE: Remember that cartridge availability is a huge factor with research. I looked through the 1880 UMC catalogs of January and May of 1880 and NO LISTING for the Merwin & Hulbert 44...Then again in the U.S. Cartridge Co 1881 catalog....NO LISTING for the Merwin and Hulbert cartridge. ( see photo 2)

The first listing is 1882!!!
So my question is simple: How can we say a gun is out there in 1880 when "Major Cartridge company manufactures" are NOT making a round for it?


Murph
 

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merwin

Both these photos are captioned "Deadwood 1879"
In re reading the Phelps book, the first Army trial for the "Merwin Model 1876" was done Jan 22 1878. I believe that the 1st open tops were already available at this time.
 

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Army trials?

Mike,
Parsons in his book from 1950 describes the Army trials in detail. They went on for a long time. The last test in the trials that I'm aware of was the "multi-ball" cartridge test with all of the pistols. This began in June of 1878. It's documented that these tests went on until late 1879.

Quote: The efforts of the Ordnance Department to develop a satisfactory multi-ball load for revolvers appear to have ended with the trials of the Merwin Hulbert cartridge and of the last of Captain Wright's designs in 1879.


We also need to answer the "cartridges not being available until 1882"? and the patent drawing not being submitted until March of 1882? and the Distributor catalogs showing first availability in 1883 chambering the 44wcf cartridge. Then there is the auction that you posted? With a low serial number having the 1882 patent designs and chambering a Merwin and Hulbert round that was "clearly" not available until 1882. All proven. Not opinion. All this information is documented in period catalogs and "legal" records.

I like old west photo's a lot but the common denominator is often they are dated wrong. I mean "quite often". Just one example? I can show you 3 different dates suggested for the Bob Ford photo that I posted with him holding a SAA. Dates vary From 1882-1884 is what I found with a minimal effort.

I respect other researchers and authors but that doesn't mean that the information is 100% accurate and I'm not suggesting that my research is? but the information that I posted "must be disputed with legitimate, documented, cataloged, information. Questions must be answered not ignored.

Who made rounds for these open-tops in 1880?

Why do they have design features that were not patent applied for until March of 1882?

Why can't I locate an early Major Distributor listing for the 44 open-top "prior" to 1882?



Murph
 
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Merwin Hulbert Model 1876

Well Murph.
I have not found any catalog references for pre 1880 Merwin 44
guns or cartridges.
I did find a couple of interesting notes and images.
The S&W American was patented in 1869 and available in 1870
The Colt 1873 pat 1873 available 1874
Remington 1875 available 1875
You suggest that the Merwin Hulbert 44 pat 1877 was not available for another 5 or 6 years.???
Pheonix Cart. Co was owned by Merwin.
The Merwin 44's would fire 44 S&W American cartridges just as the Merwin 32 and 38 would fire the S&W equivalent
 

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