Just curious, how many carry spare ammunition?

I find it troublesome that those that profess to carry extra ammo or a B.U.G. are willing to ignore statistics at their convenience. They see data about a gunfight: the duration, shots fired, and distance; but feel their little episode will be the exception. They will cite a Platt moment, an Ayoob article, and other data that is convenient for their argument.
Here is what many of you are saying, and see how ridiculous it is...
1. Anyone that carries a 6-shot revolver or SA regardless of caliber)w/one reload is at serious disadvantage to a similar person with Glock 17 and one mag! NUMBERS don't mean a hoot...If you don't understand what's missing here....you live in a fantasy world filled with too much TV.
Have you ever drawn your weapon, had shots fired at you? Do you know what avoidance and cover is all about? Do you actually think in a shoot-out you'll be right along side a LEO and "let's blast away"! I'm reminded of a neighbor, retired LEO, drew his weapon only a few times in his career, never fired except the few times he had to qualify each year; but after drinking a bit seems to have this Jim Cirillo fantasy of shooting up the BG's...
I have no problem with how much ammo you carry; just don't say that those that are proficient mentally & physically carrying one handgun is at some serious disadvantage...
 
Big Foot said:
1. Anyone that carries a 6-shot revolver or SA regardless of caliber)w/one reload is at serious disadvantage to a similar person with Glock 17 and one mag! NUMBERS don't mean a hoot...If you don't understand what's missing here....you live in a fantasy world filled with too much TV.
Click to expand...
First off, I don't watch TV. I hate the things. As far as numbers don't matter, why don't you answer my question? How many shots are enough, Ace? Will you take up my challenge and pack a single shot pistol, since your skill, marksmanship and crystal ball will carry the day? It's pretty obvious that you aren't even reading our posts in their entirety, or lack the mental capacity to retain and process them. LIKE I SAID, TWO MEN I KNOW PERSONALLY RAN INTO BULLET SPONGES!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THIS TYPE BIG ENOUGH? CAN YOU READ THIS?

I guess I'm faced with a choice I can listen to and follow the example of, Jim Cirillo, Bill Allard, Keith Jones (who advised we prepare for the unlikelyhood of running into a bullet sponge in at recent podcast at www.proarmspodcast.com ), Evan Marshall, Lance Thomas, various reknowned and highly respected trainers including Massad Ayoob, Gabe Suarez and many others, or Bigfoot. Gee that's a tuff one. :rolleyes:

A search in this forum for "strongside vs. crossdraw" will reveal a classic example of Bigfoot's stellar logic. The thread Strongside vs. Crossdraw will be on the fourth page.
 
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flop-shank said:
Speed strips are for when the shooting is over and the opportunity presents itself to reload. I carry reloads for that purpose alone and agree with Gator. At the same time a speed strip is better than nothing and may get you out of hot water. They weigh next to nothing, so there needs to be a good reason not to carry one IMO (and yes, Because "I don't want to ever do more than just grab a gun and go", is still valid. It's your decision).
Click to expand...
It's like having extra picks or a spare bottle of sauce in the house. Right on Flop Shank
 
There is nothing wrong with carrying a revolver. I do it myself. I think that some of the people that are saying that people don't need to carry spare ammo need to think about a few things and the reasons some of us do carry extra ammo. You say that you are proficient in your marksmanship. When was the last time you were shooting at a target at the range and had to go for cover while a target was moving and shooting back. I can't say that this has ever happened at any range I went to. That level of stress and addrenilin will make you miss. Also lets look at the things criminals are using these days. You see them carrying high capacity weapons and wearing body armor occasionaly. I don't live in a fantasy world or a world of TV. I live in the world of what is going on in society. That is why I chose to carry spare ammo for my revolver or a spare mag. I am sure that my life expieriences are different from yours as well. You can choose to carry spare mags or ammo or not. That is your decision and I won't criticize you for your decisions. That is what this country is all about. But, you are seriously mistaken to say that everyone that thinks a person needs to carry spare ammo is living in a fantasy world or a world of to much TV.


snakeman
 
I imagined that I used my reload that I'll never have to use today. :rolleyes: I must have imagined I shot a woodchuck at about seven yards, slipped the empty casing from the chamber of my 5" 629, then pulled a replacement from my El Paso Saddlery cartridge slide. My father-in-law was very pleased about the demise of the garden raiding wombat that we both imagined I shot. No doubt the sticky red stuff on the ground was Cool-Aid, or ketchup or something.
 
Big Foot said:
I find it troublesome that those that profess to carry extra ammo or a B.U.G. are willing to ignore statistics at their convenience. They see data about a gunfight: the duration, shots fired, and distance; but feel their little episode will be the exception. They will cite a Platt moment, an Ayoob article, and other data that is convenient for their argument.
Here is what many of you are saying, and see how ridiculous it is...
1. Anyone that carries a 6-shot revolver or SA regardless of caliber)w/one reload is at serious disadvantage to a similar person with Glock 17 and one mag! NUMBERS don't mean a hoot...If you don't understand what's missing here....you live in a fantasy world filled with too much TV.
Have you ever drawn your weapon, had shots fired at you? Do you know what avoidance and cover is all about? Do you actually think in a shoot-out you'll be right along side a LEO and "let's blast away"! I'm reminded of a neighbor, retired LEO, drew his weapon only a few times in his career, never fired except the few times he had to qualify each year; but after drinking a bit seems to have this Jim Cirillo fantasy of shooting up the BG's...
I have no problem with how much ammo you carry; just don't say that those that are proficient mentally & physically carrying one handgun is at some serious disadvantage...
Click to expand...

Yes, I have drawn my weapon. Most memorably, it was a heavy barrel 64. Yes, I've been shot at. Twice that I know about.

I don't recall many people saying anything about someone with a revolver or 1911 or what being at an automatic disadvantage to someone with a Glock withone mag. If anything, the person with the Glock made a mistake since they only have the one mag was a point that was made (our discussion of malfunction drills). As we discussed, for various reasons - whether an auto holds 7 rounds or 30 - having a spare mag is a good idea.

As I explained to you, there are *no* statistics involving what happens in shootings involving armed citizens. No one collects them. Most media reports that do make the press only do so on a regional level and are rarely inclusive of an extreme level of detail. Any numbers floating around about an "average" shooting incident either apply to law enforcement (and vary by department ) studies or are simple speculation. Even in LE circles, some departments were firing eight to ten rounds per incident - with as many as 2/3s of these not hitting the target and would be indicative of "more might be a good idea".

As you're likely aware - any shooting incident is the exception. Once one is already dealing with anomalies, all bets are off. I don't know what form or shape my "incident" would take.

I have drawn my weapon and I have been shot at. That doesn't make me a ninja, operator or anything else. It makes an average slumlord (ret.) or perhaps just an average former resident of Michigan. It's a rough place. Shrug.

Where someone says numbers do mean something it is insofar as having them (potentially) on your side can be a good thing and certainly does no harm. You've also now been shown several incidents (when you claimed none existed) where people did have to reload and in some cases fired over 100rounds (Beckwith) and one case where an apparent lack of a reload at least contributed to the death of the intervening armed citizen (the 2005 case that Lott wrote about). I don't have to have my house burn down around me - which has never happened - to think that having a smoke alarm or a fire extinguisher are good ideas.

Lots of people only carry one gun, and most carry none at all. I don't really worry about it, it's their call. I just point out "why" I do what I do and why someone might do what they do.

Oh and I mainly watch Spongebob these days. He doesn't carry a gun.
 
Barney needed only one bullet on TV.
Prepare for the worst and pray for the best. To each his own.
 
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Flop-Shank, sorry I missed your earlier question. No, not a single-shot handgun. I never said anything about a "one-shot-one-kill" was all that was needed. Only the capacity of one's handgun, 6-7,17, etc....To be entirely honest, some of my reasons deal with the logistics of concealing the additional: climate-clothes, etc...
Evidently, you also haven't read my entire post...
Since you don't watch TV, perhaps you read the gun rags...Did you know that many civilian PD instructors do not include reloads, NY-Tactical in their instruction? They have good reason, besides the data you have ignored from the Uniform Crime Report (FBI) on shootings: # of shots fired, duration in time, and distance....
Here's why extra ammo is not needed, including a B.U.G. for CIVILIANS!
Both reasons are based on failure & negativity:
1. Extra ammo & B.U.G. lends one to think of an extended shootout: you won't survive if you participate...Instead: look for cover & the Cavalry...
2. Extra ammo gives the false impression that if you have a mag failure, e.g., you will have time to reload and continue on...Unfortunately, you lose again....If your weapon is not 100%, your mag fails for whatever reason, you are SOOL!
You're more likely to have a bad-moment in a Wally World parking lot and your reaction must be quick & deliberate.
BTW, thanks for looking up some of my previous posts..In the SS vs Crossdraw debate: my views were favorable if you read the entire postings from various individuals...I'm out every day and I know the real world; not jumping on posts 24-7....
My only wish in this minor debate is that those with CHL's: carry each and every time they go out regardless of caliber and # of rds...
 
Big Foot said:
Since you don't watch TV, perhaps you read the gun rags...Did you know that many civilian PD instructors do not include reloads, NY-Tactical in their instruction? They have good reason, besides the data you have ignored from the Uniform Crime Report (FBI) on shootings: # of shots fired, duration in time, and distance....
Here's why extra ammo is not needed, including a B.U.G. for CIVILIANS!
Both reasons are based on failure & negativity:
1. Extra ammo & B.U.G. lends one to think of an extended shootout: you won't survive if you participate...Instead: look for cover & the Cavalry...
2. Extra ammo gives the false impression that if you have a mag failure, e.g., you will have time to reload and continue on...Unfortunately, you lose again....If your weapon is not 100%, your mag fails for whatever reason, you are SOOL!
My only wish in this minor debate is that those with CHL's: carry each and every time they go out regardless of caliber and # of rds...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what part of the Uniform Crime Report that you're referencing. The most relevant part, which still isn't fully relevant to armed citizens, would be the stats on officers killed in the line of duty. This goes into detail on weapon used, shots fired, etc. The biggest point that it usually makes is actually to "wear your armor", since a noteworthy portion of those LEOs killed in most years didn't. I'm not aware of a section of the UCR that details incidents involving armed citizens, or even a use of force section that compiles every shooting by a LEO in the line of duty. There is a table of expanded "homicide data", but that doesn't tell us shots fired, distances, and indeed might not even include justifiable shootings since they might not have been reported by individual agencies as a homicide (many areas under report crime, some over report it, depending on grant money versus political considerations).

In summary I find nothing in the Uniform Crime Report that offers any statistics relevant to armed citizens and shooting incidents involving them. (Edit to add that I have it in front of me in another screen, it's around 25percent of LEOs killed that weren't wearing armor. Other than suggesting that wearing armor if the risk warrants it, again, I see nothing on point in the UCR.)

I'm not sure what trainers you allude to that teach not to reload. If you have a list, I'm sure many of us would love to know, since they could be added to the "avoid" list alongside the school - that shall remain nameless here - that stuck the camera guy in front of the firing line to get some action shots.

In either of the two situations you've presented, you've in fact focused on a negative plan - passively waiting for rescue or hoping for the best under cover if a primary weapon is empty, out of action owing to damage, or jammed. In either certain urban areas, and also many rural areas, rescue could be half an hour away, sometimes more.

It makes much more sense to either reload, restore a weapon to operation via a fresh magazine if necessary, or get back in the fight with a back up weapon compared to your position of essentially hunkering down and hoping for the best. I'd throw rocks before I did that. (Google "The Onion Field", "Christian/Newsom murders", or "Wichita Massacre"... A slim chance in a fight beats what can happen if you don't fight. I'll take a slim chance over none any day of the week.) Yes, someone might still get killed, but at least they'd have a chance.

Nothing about carrying extra ammo negates the idea of finding cover. Most trainers tend to emphasize seeking cover before reloading if at all possible (which it isn't always, since sometimes there is no cover).

A shooting incident need not even be "prolonged" for a lot of ammunition to be expended. Beckwith fired 105 rounds in three minutes to keep himself alive while badly outnumbered. Beckwith also took cover, and indeed planned an escape/rally point on the fly.
 
Two spare mags for my P226 in an Alessi dual pouch. I still have some experimenting to do. Might switch to 1 or 2 single pouches for a bit more flexibility.
 
I carry a backpack with 340 spare rounds and my RCBS reloader just in case I need to make more. You never know how much ammo you might need in a firefight! :)

The tough part is keeping the loose powder dry...

Actually, I rarely carry a spare mag or speedloader for my CCW weapon.

Edmo
 
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Gator,
I looked up the Wichita Massacre just to be sure it was what I thought it was. I lived in Wichita then and I do now. I worked at for the Kansas Department of Corrections when they were sentanced and they came to the facility I worked. I had to deal with these crazy guys.
For those of you that don't know what happened I will give you a few details. Johnathan and Reginald Carr are brothers. They broke in to a East Wichita home. There were six people inside the home. 3 guys and 3 girls. The brothers proceeded to hold every one at gunpoint and raped everyone. The guys included. They took all of them to a snowy soccer field, all of the victims were naked, put them on thier knees, and executed each one of them with a shot to the back of the head. One of the female victims survived and was able to walk a considerable distance to a home and have police called.
The victims did not have a gun in the home. The trial was aired on a local radio station in it's entirety. My dad and I listened to some of it. We both agreed that if we didn't have a gun they found us dead in the house and not in a soccer field because we would never let anything like being raped happen unless we were dead.


snakeman
 
I carry a speed strip with my 442 in my watch pocket....more out of habit than thinking I'll actually need it...really can't see myself reloading that when I could be running.
 
I normally carry two reloads for whatever weapon I have on me. Be it a 5 shot J-frame or a 1911, I figure two reloads should be plenty. I never carry a BUG. I carry enough crap around with me as it is. I don't want to be adding things I consider un-neccesary.
My primary goal is to pay attention to my surroundings and avoid the gun fight all together. I know that's not always possable, but then thats why I carry in the first place.
But this is just me. My lifestyle, my area and my daily life. Your situation may be completely different.
So if you want to carry a half dozen guns, a 1000 rounds of ammo, four knives, body armour and a pit bull, I'm not gonna knock you for it. I don't think there is a right answer to this question. Go with what you're comfortable with. Just be aware that other people may have a different level of comfort. ;)
 
snakeman32 said:
Gator,
I looked up the Wichita Massacre just to be sure it was what I thought it was. I lived in Wichita then and I do now. I worked at for the Kansas Department of Corrections when they were sentanced and they came to the facility I worked. I had to deal with these crazy guys.
For those of you that don't know what happened I will give you a few details. Johnathan and Reginald Carr are brothers. They broke in to a East Wichita home. There were six people inside the home. 3 guys and 3 girls. The brothers proceeded to hold every one at gunpoint and raped everyone. The guys included. They took all of them to a snowy soccer field, all of the victims were naked, put them on thier knees, and executed each one of them with a shot to the back of the head. One of the female victims survived and was able to walk a considerable distance to a home and have police called.
The victims did not have a gun in the home. The trial was aired on a local radio station in it's entirety. My dad and I listened to some of it. We both agreed that if we didn't have a gun they found us dead in the house and not in a soccer field because we would never let anything like being raped happen unless we were dead.

snakeman
Click to expand...

The female survivor, who was quite brave throughout, survived because she apparently had a metal hair clip that partially deflected the bullet when it was her time to get one in the back of the head if memory serves. I think the murder weapon was a Davis .380 or .32?

After the massacre the brothers went back to steal Christmas presents and even killed the pet dog of the victims. Their lawyer was later to say that they had a bad childhood.

If any good came out of it, other than the Carr brothers going to death row, it was that she later ended marrying another victim of the Carr brothers who'd survived being robbed by them prior to the massacre. The couple met when testifying at the trial.

Not every criminal is motivated solely by the business like profit motive, as these cases show, nor do they act alone.

The lesson that I extracted from that was that not fighting isn't a viable option, the more so once one commences to fight. Nor is running necessarily going to be. Even were I to be able to make my escape (hard to outrun a bullet), that still risks leaving others behind. Thus any strategy that relies on "run", "obey", or "hope" got a big red X on my mental roster of viable options.

The Newsom/Christian murders were just as gruesome. The male was castrated and raped before being killed, while the woman was raped and tortured for days. What was left of her was later found in trash bags.
 
Alright!

Edmo said:
I carry a backpack with 340 spare rounds and my RCBS reloader just in case I need to make more. You never know how much ammo you might need in a firefight! :)

The tough part is keeping the loose powder dry...

Actually, I rarely carry a spare mag or speedloader for my CCW weapon.

Edmo
Click to expand...
It is a good thing I had just swallowed, you got anny idea how bad Coke hurts spraying out your nose? Not to mention the sticky keyboard! RCBS Reloader!!! I usually do carry a spare speed loader of 38s or a spare moon clip of 9mms depending on which gun I am carrying at the time. RCBS reloader that's funny!
Wakatomika
 
flop-shank said:
There's a Lance thomas vidoe on You Tube, Gator. He felt the same way we do about some miscreant deciding our fate.
Click to expand...

YouTube - Real Gunfighter Lance Thomas on Justic Files is probably the best of the Lance Thomas interviews. Some of the youtube vids featuring him as a key word just shill for "Front Sight". Note the AK and pistol grip shotgun on a rack behind Thomas and the Glock on his hip.

Jewelry/watch sales were also at the root of the Richmond shootout (Lead and diamonds: the Richmond jewelry store shootout - The Ayoob Files | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET for reference) where the store owners were keeping eleven (!) Rossi snubs, an 870 shotgun and a Ruger .44 mag handy and used a surprising number of them. Apparently no one figured out exactly how many shots were fired other than that it was over 30, including four from the .44 mag. They were worried about the then new gun a month law in VA so they'd stocked up.

Another good resource for what can happen is to simply listen live to the Detroit PD radios here - Wayne County, Michigan (MI) Live Police, Fire, and EMS Scanners on RadioReference.com
 
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Spare ammo vs. BUG

I used to carry 2 extra mags (or speedloaders) and no BUG, but have switched to one extra mag (or spdldr) and a BUG (with a reload for it). I find it helps spread the weight around, plus BUGs and their ammo are lighter. Of course, depends on where you're going and what you're doing. I more often think in terms of the appropriate weapon for two-legged vs. four-legged incapacitation. I guess with my truck gun I usually have 3 available in transit.

Edmo, you should look into a Dillion!
 
bubbajoe45 said:
... Edmo, you should look into a Dillion!
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right! I think the volume of ammo per hour produced by a Dillion vs a single stage RCBS press might be the ticket. The only problem I'm working through is getting a backpack large enough to carry the Dillion and the automatic case feeder without raising eyebrows...

However, I'll never want for more ammo during a gun fight as I can "squeeze" more together at the scene. You guys who only carry six to ten spare magazines are WAY under prepared!!

Edmo
 
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