JUST IN! Nation WIDE injunction on the Pistol Brace Rule!

[John Patrick]

I was at my local FFL picking up something I'd ordered. He told me the ATF lost and the pistol brace ruling was dead.

I searched online, but couldn't find anything concrete about it.

If it's dead, I'm gonna put the brace back on my AR, and remove it from the registry.

Converting a rifle to a pistol is illegal! Once a rifle always a rifle.

You could put a brace on it and leave it registered as a SBR, but if you remove it from the registry you have an illegal SBR regardless of brace or stock.

Check here:
Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

 

[steelslaver]

If you make a pistol into a rifle you can legally make it back into a pistol.

If his gun was originally a pistol it can go back and forth. Only if it started life as a rifle it must remain so.



Do a search for "Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm?"

You will get this from ATF web site

Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length.

Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such configuration would not be considered a "weapon made from a rifle" as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4).

[26 U.S.C. § 5845, 27 CFR § 479.11]

I think it all started over the Contender rifle barrels

 

[Well Armed]

If you make a pistol into a rifle you can legally make it back into a pistol.

If his gun was originally a pistol it can go back and forth. Only if it started life as a rifle it must remain so.



Do a search for "Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm?"

You will get this from ATF web site

Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length.

Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such configuration would not be considered a "weapon made from a rifle" as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4).

[26 U.S.C. § 5845, 27 CFR § 479.11]

I think it all started over the Contender rifle barrels

Thank you.... So much misinformation being spewed in this thread as being facts....

One can also SBR/register their pistol, and then switch back and forth between being a pistol and SBR. The NFA laws and ATF interpretations only apply when your registered SBR is in SBR format aka less than 16" barrel, an overall length less than 26", and with a stock on it. When I remove the stock from my registered SBR, NFA laws no longer apply to it. I can even legally sell my registered SBR to someone else in a private sale by returning the SBR to pistol or rifle configuration. I can put a brace on my SBR, and move all around the country or even lend my "pistol" to a from family member.

 

[John Patrick]

If you make a pistol into a rifle you can legally make it back into a pistol.

If his gun was originally a pistol it can go back and forth. Only if it started life as a rifle it must remain so.




Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length.

Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such configuration would not be considered a "weapon made from a rifle" as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4).

[26 U.S.C. § 5845, 27 CFR § 479.11]

Thanks for the help. I had thought that once documented as a rifle a firearm is always a rifle. (And wood's AR is documented as a rifle via SBR registration.)

Since the only reason to have an AR pistol is to have a short barrel and avoid registration and having to file a Form 5320.20 to travel interstate, I presume wood's AR has a short barrel.

 

[Well Armed]

Thanks for the help. I had thought that once documented as a rifle a firearm is always a rifle. (And wood's AR is documented as a rifle via SBR registration.)

Since the only reason to have an AR pistol is to have a short barrel and avoid registration and having to file a Form 5320.20 to travel interstate, I presume wood's AR has a short barrel.

It's what the firearm was first made to be in it's genesis. If a stripped lower was first made to be a rifle, it is always a rifle; otherwise, it can freely be switched back and forth whether registered as a SBR or not. Even a registered SBR can be switched back to being a pistol. Then the owner can travel to other states without having to follow any SBR restrictions just as long as they do not make it into a SBR.

Those who registered their braced pistols didn't have to engrave their firearms with personalinformation (something that regular SBRs have to do), and they have the best of all worlds. They can put a real stock on their pistols and have a SBR, they can put a brace on their pistols and avoid all the rifle and NFA laws, or they can make their pistols into a standard rifle with a stock and 16" barrel.

As far as registration goes, it's really no different vs filling out a 4473. When you fill out a 4473 form, they're basically registered your firearm in the same way as filling out a form 1 for a SBR minus the finger prints. In both cases, the ATF and government only knows that you owned the firearm around the time frame the federal forms were filled out, but you could have sold it since then. There is no legal requirement to unregister a registered SBR, and a registered SBR can be legally sold without going through the ATF just as long as it is NOT in SBR configuration when it is sold.

FYI: Although they do not have your finger prints when filling out a form 4473, the ATF and government still has access to your finger prints which are in a database if you have a passport, ever been arrested and processed, every applied for a carry permit, or every been in the military or law enforcement.

 

[John Patrick]

It's what the firearm was first made to be in it's genesis. If a stripped lower was first made to be a rifle, it is always a rifle; otherwise, it can freely be switched back and forth whether registered as a SBR or not. Even a registered SBR can be switched back to being a pistol. Then the owner can travel to other states without having to follow any SBR restrictions just as long as they do not make it into a SBR.

Those who registered their braced pistols didn't have to engrave their firearms with personalinformation (something that regular SBRs have to do), and they have the best of all worlds. They can put a real stock on their pistols and have a SBR, they can put a brace on their pistols and avoid all the rifle and NFA laws, or they can make their pistols into a standard rifle with a stock and 16" barrel.

More thanks.

 

[squidsix]

Looking over this thread, and others around the net, it seems to me that a lot of guys want to justify having gotten their SBR stamp, rather than accepting that the ATF overstepped their limits, and started making rules that nobody even understood.
It is ok to admit that the $200 you spent was probably a waste, or that getting a "tax free stamp" was just another way to invite the ATF into your life. It is ok to accept that this whole problem should never have existed, and move on. Rather than continue to try and justify having been fooled.
I have been fooled, just ask my ex wife.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Whether the ATF overstepped their limits or not was irrelevant to me. I already have ATF tax stamps, $200 for a suppressor and $5 for an AOW. I have never heard from the ATF after those acquisitions so I sure as heck wasn't going to worry about them bothering me if I got a free tax stamp for a pistol brace.

My FFL, one of my very best friends and the manufacturer of my AR pistol felt differently, so he came by and removed the brace - we're such good friends I let him win the argument. But I'm getting it back ASAP!!!!

 

[wood714]

Looking over this thread, and others around the net, it seems to me that a lot of guys want to justify having gotten their SBR stamp, rather than accepting that the ATF overstepped their limits, and started making rules that nobody even understood.
It is ok to admit that the $200 you spent was probably a waste, or that getting a "tax free stamp" was just another way to invite the ATF into your life. It is ok to accept that this whole problem should never have existed, and move on. Rather than continue to try and justify having been fooled.
I have been fooled, just ask my ex wife.

I've spent $1,800 on tax stamps, and did get the "free" one the ATF offered. I have never thought it was a waste of time or felt fooled. I truly don't understand your logic.

Just last night I submitted yet another eForm 1 to the ATF.

 

[wood714]

I did the free tax stamp thing on a AR pistol like the one pictured below. It was bought and shipped as a pistol. It's listed a pistol on the 4477.


"The only type of NFA firearm that cannot be converted to non-NFA status is a machine gun. You can SBR your AR pistol and then later convert it back to a pistol. If the change is going to be permanent, or you are selling it in a non-NFA configuration you should notify ATF to have it removed from the registry.Mar 14, 2022"

 

[steelslaver]

Looking over this thread, and others around the net, it seems to me that a lot of guys want to justify having gotten their SBR stamp, rather than accepting that the ATF overstepped their limits, and started making rules that nobody even understood.
It is ok to admit that the $200 you spent was probably a waste, or that getting a "tax free stamp" was just another way to invite the ATF into your life. It is ok to accept that this whole problem should never have existed, and move on. Rather than continue to try and justify having been fooled.
I have been fooled, just ask my ex wife.

How is getting a stamp inviting the ATF into your life worse than when you sign a 4472. Trust me if they want in your life they are coming and they will have a warrant in hand. Plus, there was absolutely no guarantee that the rule would be over turned or when. Lots of stupid rules still in effect.

For instance in some states it is illegal for a woman to go topless in public and that is absolutely sexual discrimination if males are allowed to go shirtless, and it was ruled as such in 2019, when the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a Fort Collins, Colorado prohibition on women going topless was a violation of equal rights and therefore illegal. There are currently 23 states where it is legal, 3 which make it illegal and the other 24 are ambitious. But, so far the Supreme court has decline to rule.

 

[Well Armed]

Looking over this thread, and others around the net, it seems to me that a lot of guys want to justify having gotten their SBR stamp, rather than accepting that the ATF overstepped their limits, and started making rules that nobody even understood.
It is ok to admit that the $200 you spent was probably a waste, or that getting a "tax free stamp" was just another way to invite the ATF into your life. It is ok to accept that this whole problem should never have existed, and move on. Rather than continue to try and justify having been fooled.
I have been fooled, just ask my ex wife.

I will go down this rabbit hole with you. You made the assertions, so please back them up with logic and facts.

1. Explain how we were tricked or fooled by being able to get an SBR?
2. Do you believe that both things could be true? That those who decide to take advantage of the free SBR could have also had the opinion that the ATF overstepped their authority, or do you believe everything is binary?

Not you specifically but rather your comment comes across as condensing and dismissive. We are all grown intelligent men and women here who are capable of thinking for our selves, taking all the pros and cons into consideration, and making the best decision for our lifestyles and personal preferences. We tell you exactly why we made the choices we made for ourselves, and you dismiss our explanations as belonging to those who are basically imbeciles incapable of rational opinions and thought for no other reason than we made a decision for ourselves that triggers you.

FYI: A $200 tax stamp is not a waste for us. It allows those who have one to legally put a stock on their pistols or a short barrel on their rifles while keeping their freedom and lives for the next decade. It's a very simple concept. Just because that is not personally important to you or something you want, that doesn't make everyone else fools, gullible, or means it was a "waste" for us.

 

[Well Armed]

How is getting a stamp inviting the ATF into your life worse than when you sign a 4472. Trust me if they want in your life they are coming and they will have a warrant in hand. Plus, there was absolutely no guarantee that the rule would be over turned or when. Lots of stupid rules still in effect.

You are right. It's no different than filling out a 4473. Many do not realize that fact. It's hypocritical for those who filled out a form 4473 to then turn around and bash those who fill out a form 1.

 

[Drm50]

Why is ATF so locked on Pistol Braces, Bump Stocks and other trivial novelties? It's not like they figure into much crime. So Vagas shooter had bump stocks, so what much more damage would or could have been done just pointing and firing at crowd. Binary triggers and short barrel firearms that shoot shotgun ammo, mostly novelty junk. Stuff for range monkeys to play with.
Why don't they invest their time and money into getting Glock Switches and such off the streets. Maybe press charges on those that are breaking the law. Put the bad guys in jail for life. Anyone using a weapon during the committing of crime should not get a second chance. Society doesn't need these people. They are a drain of resources that could be better spent.
Law abiding citizens are not going to kill anyone no matter what kind of toys they have.

 

[s&wchad]

Guys,
This thread isn't intended to debate the pro's and com's of tax stamps, class III items or administrative overreach.

It was allowed to inform members that the recent ATF ruling on pistol braces is currently unenforceable because of a court ruling. They're currently legal to own at the federal level without any federal blessings. Make sure you're complying with any State and local laws.

If things change, please post the information. Until then, we're done here.