JUST TESTED THE "NEW" REMINGTON HTP FBI LOAD VS THE OLD ONE

[chief38]

Over the past few years I have really gotten into testing and Chronographing various .38 Special self defense loads since that is what I carry in my Model 60-7. Many of the results have been posted on this and other Forums and would like to post some interesting findings from todays Chronograph tests.

As some here might already know, I am a huge Buffalo Bore fan and that is my daily carry load (158 grain HEAVY +P LSWCHP-GC - 1040 fps from a 2" bbl. and 1170 fps from a 6" barrel). Now, as some may know, Remington recently re-branded their "FBI load" and their long time designation of R38S12 is now known as High Terminal Performance or HTP. In a call to them about a year ago I was told that the new HTP load is identical to their older R38S12 and the only thing new was the packaging. Recently I purchased a few boxes of the new HTP ammo and while at the Range today Chronographing M1 Carbine and other loads I wanted to compare the old against the new Remington FBI load offerings as well.

Now just as a note, I almost always test .38 Special carry ammo from my 2" M60-7 but today I had a M27 with a 6" barrel since I was also testing some .357 offerings.

Firing 10 rounds each from the M27 here are the results of the old vs the new. Todays weather was 67º F, dry and very sunny.

OLD R38S12 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 953
HIGH: 969
AVG: 964

NEW HTP 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 859
HIGH: 884
AVG: 872

As the results show, Remington's new FBI load offering seems to have shed just under 100 feet per second when they re-branded it. I did only open and test one box so far but since they were fairly consistent I would expect that these results are reflecting what they are currently loading. I would really like to know if anyone else has done a comparison of the new & old and what their results were. Now remember, these results are from a 6" barrel and would expect a reduction of at least 100 or so F/S from a 2" barrel. That would result in around 770 fps out of a Chief's Special with their new HTP offering as compared to around 860 fps from their older one.

I am not saying the new bullet won't do what it is supposed to do, but I am saying that they seemed to have watered it down by more than 10%. I also realize that bullet performance is not solely judged by its velocity, but given the fact that the bullets in both the old and new are identical, I would think that bullet performance would certainly be affected by this velocity reduction. If anybody with a Chronograph has both new and old Remington FBI loads at their disposal, I would certainly like to know what their results might be. Please post if you are able.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[JayFramer]

Ughhh... gross.

I was in the market for some new Remington 158 gr. "HTP" .38 special +P LSWCHPs, but not anymore.

Looks like the old FBI load is dead, at least from the likes of Remington.

I'm not sure if Federal or Winchester even load their versions of the FBI load anymore, and that's a shame. As is this Remington watering down business.

My guess is Big Green did it to reduce price. I wouldn't doubt they were satisfied with reducing the powder charge or formula in order to cut costs.

These days, pretty much the only places you can find true full-power ammo are from companies like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, Underwood, etc.

 

[shouldazagged]

Guess I'm trying the Buffalo Bore stuff just in time. I still have a little of the old Remington version, which I'll hang onto.

 

[Boge]

Chief, nice test. I sure wish you would have remembered your snubby. I'll see if I can't chrono some of the new stuff in a 442 for a confirmation.

I shot some of the old stuff in a GP100 3" back in 2012 and got this for five shots:

833, 846, 834, 854 & 846. Avg. = 843 fps. The same day I shot some Speer .38 Spcl. 135 gr. +p Gold Dots & got this:

891, 890, 907, 921, 915 & 928. Avg. = 909 fps.

Buffalo Bore .38 Spcl. +p SWCLHP: 1045, 1057, 1055, 1066 & 1075. Avg. = 1060 fps.

 

[CoMF]

Could the reduced velocity with a 6" barrel be due to the use of a faster burning powder in the HTP load? If it is in fact a reduced charge, a quick seperation of components and weighing of powder charges would confirm it.

More importantly though, the thing I'd like to see is whether or not the HTP LHP exhibits the same expansion characteristics of the Express version.

Anyone care to donate a box of HTP38S12 to tnoutdoors9?

 

[kaaskop49]

attn CoMF et al

I don't believe 'TN...' accepts ammo donations for test as he has been swamped, according to his video. Also, he has been very ill from flu: in a recent post, he was very weak and had lost 30 pounds. All testing on hold for the foreseeable future.

As to the R-P LHP results, now I am very ill. The original W-W FBI loads from the early 70s ran a measured 1010fps or so from 4", now down to the 890fps of recent years. Now again? This is a real kick in the teeth. Interested in what 2" and 4" tests would show.

Fortunately, I still have a few boxes of those 70s loads.

 

[chief38]

I WILL test these new HTP loads out of my 2" Chief's some time soon and WILL post results here. In the mean time if anyone has both new and old versions and a Chronograph it would be very interesting to see if they too get the same results.

By the way and just for info............ I've Chronographed Buffalo Bore's +P load many times from many different boxes and the results are always the same - they are incredibly consistent as are the Speer Gold Dot. Just wish the Gold Dots were 158 grains with the same results.

 

[chief38]

Chief, nice test. I sure wish you would have remembered your snubby. I'll see if I can't chrono some of the new stuff in a 442 for a confirmation.

I shot some of the old stuff in a GP100 3" back in 2012 and got this for five shots:

833, 846, 834, 854 & 846. Avg. = 843 fps. The same day I shot some Speer .38 Spcl. 135 gr. +p Gold Dots & got this:

891, 890, 907, 921, 915 & 928. Avg. = 909 fps.

Buffalo Bore .38 Spcl. +p SWCLHP: 1045, 1057, 1055, 1066 & 1075. Avg. = 1060 fps.

Seems perfectly consistent with my posted results from last years post shot out of my M60-7 Chief's Special. If you do a search you will find it I am sure.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[chief38]

Ughhh... gross.

I was in the market for some new Remington 158 gr. "HTP" .38 special +P LSWCHPs, but not anymore.

Looks like the old FBI load is dead, at least from the likes of Remington.

I'm not sure if Federal or Winchester even load their versions of the FBI load anymore, and that's a shame. As is this Remington watering down business.

My guess is Big Green did it to reduce price. I wouldn't doubt they were satisfied with reducing the powder charge or formula in order to cut costs.

These days, pretty much the only places you can find true full-power ammo are from companies like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, Underwood, etc.

The Federal and Winchester results were actually around what the NEW Remington HTP results were, and the OLD Remington R38S12 was the shinning star among the Big Three ammo Co's. 158 grain +P 38 Special FBI loadings. If you do a search here you should find the results from that posting as well.
I am a BB man myself, but anybody who prefers Remington should seek out the older R38S12 designated FBI load from a year or so ago from what I saw yesterday. Remember, the results from yesterday were from a 6" M27 and NOT my usual 2" M60-7 so you will have to extrapolate about 100 fps.

 

[Pigirondan]

Heck, the standard pressure Buffalo Bore is much faster than that. Too bad.

 

[Ben_hutcherson]

Could the reduced velocity with a 6" barrel be due to the use of a faster burning powder in the HTP load? If it is in fact a reduced charge, a quick seperation of components and weighing of powder charges would confirm it.

I did break down one of the new "HTP" loads a while back. I'm away from my notes at the moment, but will try to remember to post when I can get to them.

 

[brucev]

Re: OP. Do not question your results. Reason for lower velocity quite likely due to liability concerns. Solution is to handload using well tested data from reputable sources. This will allow the handgunner to produce ammunition that exploits the full potential of a cartridge without being unduly hampered by a industry whose guide is Chicken Little. For those who do not handload, Buffalo Bore happily offeres ammunition in a variety of calibers that produce full velocity and power using appropriate bullets. This allows those persons to have ammunition available that will perform at the highest level of power and accuracy.

 

[chief38]

Heck, the standard pressure Buffalo Bore is much faster than that. Too bad.

When I tested a bunch of 38 Special SD ammo 6 months ago (from my 2" M60-7) Buffalo Bore's NON +P is almost exactly to the fps what the OLD Remington R38S12 was. Today's NEW HTP version is about 70 or 80 fps slower than BB's NON +P = dismal IMHO. Why the heck they had to mess with a proven product I do not know, but LIABILITY is probably correct.

 

[gwpercle]

Have you noticed how NEW is not necessarily BETTER? Usually it's cheaper to manufacture and we get charged more for it!
It's only better for them.
Gary

 

[BaldEagle1313]

I'm in the crowd that thinks it's cost-cutting as much as liability. Massive numbers of products are getting a little (or a lot) smaller so the price stays the same (or nearly so). Take a look at a simple box of cereal - the 18 oz box is now 16.5 or 15.7 oz. That two-quart carton of ice cream is now 1.75 or even 1.5 quarts. Same with paper products like tissue or T.P. - the square footage you get is reduced by 10% of what it once was, because they don't want you to see a massive price hike.

If Remington figures they can cut 5% of the powder out of a load, and still have it perform "acceptably" (by their standards), they're going to do it. No company is going to turn down a 5% reduction in costs if they think they can get away with it.

 

[CoMF]

To kaaskop49:

Sorry to hear tnoutdoors9 is under the weather and overwhelmed with tests. I'm a bit dismayed over the recent discoveries about the new HTP loading, but I'm reserving final judgement until someone can test it to see if the bullet performs the same as it does in the Express loading. My biggest concern is that we may have ended up with a load that only expands out of service length barrels.

To Ben_hutcherson:

Much obliged, and any info you provide will be greatly appreciated.

To everyone else:

There are lots of possible reasons why the HTP LHP is cheaper. Thinner brass? Reduced powder charge? Faster burning powders? All of the above? High standard deviations don't speak well for Remington's quality control, but the final arbiter is whether or not the new bullets exhibit the same expansion characteristics of the old ones within the observed velocity envelope.

All these ill tidings make me glad I have at least some Express LHPs squirreled away. Once those are gone though, I may have little choice but to switch to one of the more modern, light-for-caliber offerings.

 

[Boge]

Well, it was 85F with a stiff breeze and to the range I went. I chronographed the "new" rd. in question out of a Model 442:

789, 781, 805, 787, 794 + one "mulligan" of 800 to make an even six for a 793 fps avg.

I then shot five Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +p LSWCHP in the same gun for:

1020, 961, 979, 986 & 963. Avg. 982 fps.

As a quasi-control I shot one Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot that was 883 fps and one Corbon .38 Spcl. +p 110 gr. DPX that was 955 fps.

As a bonus I shot five rds. of Atomic .38 Spcl +p 148 gr. "Reverse WC" and got:

829, 821, 821, 806 & 765 for an avg. of 808 fps. Not exactly a rocket.

 

[Texas Star]

Please do post more about these loads. Remember, firing .38 Plus P out of a .357 loses some velocity that you'd have in a .38-chambered gun. I think this averages some 40 FPS in a four-inch gun.

 

[shawn mccarver]

OLD R38S12 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 953
HIGH: 969
AVG: 964

NEW HTP 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 859
HIGH: 884
AVG: 872

As the results show, Remington's new FBI load offering seems to have shed just under 100 feet per second when they re-branded it.

I wonder exactly what causes a mild load like that to be a +P?

 

[Boge]

I wonder exactly what causes a mild load like that to be a +P?

A this point I'd say optimism.