This is why...
...I buy old S&Ws.
...I buy old S&Ws.
Just when you thought it was safe to buy a new Model 36...
- Thread starter Model 15-4ever
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OP
Model 15-4ever
Member
OP Update
Returned to S&W with an RMA. Logged in at the factory in Springfield on August 29.
Called today September 8 to check on status. Hasn't been looked at yet. Revolver service is running 8 WEEKS BEHIND for evaluation.
The Lifetime Warranty apparently extends to the repair time as well...
Returned to S&W with an RMA. Logged in at the factory in Springfield on August 29.
Called today September 8 to check on status. Hasn't been looked at yet. Revolver service is running 8 WEEKS BEHIND for evaluation.
The Lifetime Warranty apparently extends to the repair time as well...
My model 63 purchased new in 1981 had the barrel lug so far out of place that the front of the cylinder would not lock. I got it home before I realized it and went back to the store. They swapped it for another and changes the SN on my paperwork, so I dod not have to deal with the factory.
Quality issues will happen as long as humans and machinery are involved in the process. 49 years in manufacturing tells me so. Is it worse today or is it just easier to communicate it to the world? I don't know.
Your gun never should have left like that, but it did. The wait is inconvenient, but as long as the manufacturer makes it right, that's what counts.
Quality issues will happen as long as humans and machinery are involved in the process. 49 years in manufacturing tells me so. Is it worse today or is it just easier to communicate it to the world? I don't know.
Your gun never should have left like that, but it did. The wait is inconvenient, but as long as the manufacturer makes it right, that's what counts.
4thAlabama
Member
Another reason that I REALLY miss the 20th century!
My guess is that a good number of S&W experienced highly skilled employees have retired that worked on assembling revolvers and performed quality control inspections. Just too many excellent condition pre 1990 S&Ws out there to bother with new production. The market place prices reflect this, vintage S&Ws selling higher than new models.
Good Lord! That was a Friday Special if I ever saw one.
Very sorry to see you got something with such poor attention to detail and I do hope they fix it in short order.
My recent 640 Pro has been tops, including out of the box, and so was my 686 SSR Pro I sold just cause I like snubbies better.
That thing shouldn't have left the factory in that condition whatsoever.
We are now entering a scary period in time. A great many people don't seem to give a care about their job, the quality of their work, and the customer. Very sad.
Very sorry to see you got something with such poor attention to detail and I do hope they fix it in short order.
My recent 640 Pro has been tops, including out of the box, and so was my 686 SSR Pro I sold just cause I like snubbies better.
That thing shouldn't have left the factory in that condition whatsoever.
We are now entering a scary period in time. A great many people don't seem to give a care about their job, the quality of their work, and the customer. Very sad.
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Skilled machinists and true assemblymen/ women have been replaced with new hi tech CNC machines in Some manufactures. Most if not all have retired or passed away. Sadly many old , well known gun manufactures have not updated their manufacturing .
I will Not buy a new (1990s to today)Smith or Colt.
I will Not buy a new (1990s to today)Smith or Colt.
Well, I am not going to bash S&W. I have the option not to buy, and I exercise that right. Many of the complaints about QC start off with " I picked this up today", and then a QC rant starts, because the gun was not looked over well enough.
I hate to say it, but I am just dumb enough to say, I really don't know how the lock came to be, and why S&W? Nobody else does it?
What would happen if they just said, we ain't doin this no mo?
I hate to say it, but I am just dumb enough to say, I really don't know how the lock came to be, and why S&W? Nobody else does it?
What would happen if they just said, we ain't doin this no mo?
Jerry in SC
Member
My recent experiences with the new S&W's has been pretty dismal. I have several pre-lock all forged J frames and will have to be content with what I have.
It's been a good ride, I've enjoyed many fine S&W revolvers over the last fifty years.
It's been a good ride, I've enjoyed many fine S&W revolvers over the last fifty years.
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What was wrong with your 10–14 that caused a replacement of the entire revolver?
The barrel on that model 36 classic is horrendous.
DGNY
Member
Good discussion and much to think about. Of course, condolences to the OP regarding that 36–10. Realize the following comments maybe OT.
Personally, I think that US manufacturing is still in the midst of the well-known transition from craftsmanship involving direct-to-material brain, hand and eye skills to the newer world of brain, hand, and eye creating CNC and all the allied processes.
Of course, what comes out the end of the chute is not always which was intended, as the brain hand and eye are arguably at least 3 or 4+ steps (materials, tooling, manufacture, finishing) removed from consumer product production. Naturally, the transition was/is undertaken both a.to lessen the cost of, and b. to acknowledge the actual impossibility of finding/training/employing hundreds or thousands of skilled workers.
What intrigues me is how AI will further impact or subtly degrade this. And instead of brain, hand and eye skills in the creation of manufacturing processes, we will have AI that, so far as I know, works without conscience, heart, conscientiousness. In other words, until AI is much more fully developed, we likely will look back on the 2020s as the good old days. Indeed, probably a lot more fun lies ahead!
Hence, quality control is by people who literally don't know about quality because it is not in their wheelhouse.
Personally, I think that US manufacturing is still in the midst of the well-known transition from craftsmanship involving direct-to-material brain, hand and eye skills to the newer world of brain, hand, and eye creating CNC and all the allied processes.
Of course, what comes out the end of the chute is not always which was intended, as the brain hand and eye are arguably at least 3 or 4+ steps (materials, tooling, manufacture, finishing) removed from consumer product production. Naturally, the transition was/is undertaken both a.to lessen the cost of, and b. to acknowledge the actual impossibility of finding/training/employing hundreds or thousands of skilled workers.
What intrigues me is how AI will further impact or subtly degrade this. And instead of brain, hand and eye skills in the creation of manufacturing processes, we will have AI that, so far as I know, works without conscience, heart, conscientiousness. In other words, until AI is much more fully developed, we likely will look back on the 2020s as the good old days. Indeed, probably a lot more fun lies ahead!
Hence, quality control is by people who literally don't know about quality because it is not in their wheelhouse.
Jerry in SC
Member
Witness the new Colt's King Cobra and Python, very little hand fitting. They're pretty nice, but there's just no soul. And that's coming from someone that owns two of them.
Just something about the new ones that doesn't translate to pride of ownership as an old Colt or S&W.
Ruger is no better, a revolver gets little attention in assembly. I have noticed the same forcing cone issues with Ruger that I see in S&W's.
Although at certain price points (Wrangler single actions, ie) it's a trade off that is worth considering Not much to complain about with a $180 revolver, if it's timed correctly and fires every time you pull the trigger.
I blame it on all that plastic pistol craze of the last twenty years that's still going on.
My son went to the Glock and the S&W M&P respective armorer's schools, lasted all of two days each.
Just something about the new ones that doesn't translate to pride of ownership as an old Colt or S&W.
Ruger is no better, a revolver gets little attention in assembly. I have noticed the same forcing cone issues with Ruger that I see in S&W's.
Although at certain price points (Wrangler single actions, ie) it's a trade off that is worth considering Not much to complain about with a $180 revolver, if it's timed correctly and fires every time you pull the trigger.
I blame it on all that plastic pistol craze of the last twenty years that's still going on.
My son went to the Glock and the S&W M&P respective armorer's schools, lasted all of two days each.
OP
Model 15-4ever
Member
Other than a hot mess, I don't know. Felt like long ratchets to me - not a difficult fix back in the day. But I received a call from CS, about a month after returning it to S&W, saying that the frame was bad and the entire revolver had to be replaced. Seemed the fellow was reading off a page; other than during armorer school, I've never been able to speak to an actual gunsmith at S&W.
I don't know that there is anyone at S&W anymore that can actually repair a revolver. It's apparently assembly only.
OP
Model 15-4ever
Member
Well lookey here! Got a text alert from FedEx yesterday that a delivery with signature required from good ole SAW was arriving tomorrow, and it shows up a day early, right before I'm about to leave. No email or other communication from S&W.
Only about 3 weeks, impressive!
Not sure what this is gonna look like inside....
Only about 3 weeks, impressive!
Not sure what this is gonna look like inside....
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OP
Model 15-4ever
Member
That's not good, Model 15-4ever.
CZ is doing the Colt Python right.
Geez! It certainly appears that S&W as well as their warranty service department do not care to make things right. Just take a swing and let it go out in poor condition. Sad, but it seems that this is the way so many manufacturers of goods operate these days. Guess I will be holding onto my old Honda and my old Maytag washer and drier, much to my wife's chagrin. Holding onto my old firearms too, they work and don't look like they were assembled by a crack head.
OP
Model 15-4ever
Member
So now... over a month since my last post. Right after that I spoke to a supervisor at S&W who promised to "make things right" after the botched "repair". I returned the Model 36 Classic to S&W for a 2nd time.
Received a notice from FedEx that a package from SAW was on the way. It arrived today and I was hesitant to open it. The cylinder was replaced (again), and this time the barrel replaced instead of filed on with a chisel. Both the the inside and outside of the forcing cone were very sharp, but it was not making contact with the cylinder. Then I held it up to the light...
I'm beside myself at this point.
Received a notice from FedEx that a package from SAW was on the way. It arrived today and I was hesitant to open it. The cylinder was replaced (again), and this time the barrel replaced instead of filed on with a chisel. Both the the inside and outside of the forcing cone were very sharp, but it was not making contact with the cylinder. Then I held it up to the light...
I'm beside myself at this point.
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Good grief.
Lucnic
Member
I have bought two new Smith's. Just not the same as the old ones. I believe Taurus is a better buy. Kimber is way above Smith and Wesson in build quality. They are expensive, but I'm well pleased with the two I own.
If I were running any manufacturing business the first thing I would do is require require random drug and alcohol tests.
smithra_66
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Chalk this up as a reason to only buy pre-lock S&Ws.
Better yet, only P&R S&Ws!
Better yet, only P&R S&Ws!
It was alluded to in an earlier post, but it looks like there is no one left in Springfield who knows how to build a revolver!
Wow, this thread is depressing. I thought S&W had put a bunch of new equipment in at the MA facility a few years ago. Apparently that equipment must have been for non-revolver production and that stuff has been moved to TN.
I agree with others that you're better off buying older S&Ws that have been used but not abused. The starting quality was just better. But if you must buy new, make sure you can actually see and touch the gun before buying.
My last new S&W purchase was a 617-6 4". I really liked the feel and look, but I really couldn't try the double action pull at the LGS as that's just poor form, especially with a rimfire. When I got it home, the double action pull had to be somewhere between 15-20 pounds. A pull only a lawyer could love. I didn't send it back. I just opened it up, did some polishing of the internals, lubed it up, and put in a Wolff spring kit. Problem solved. But it's the last new S&W I buy.
I agree with others that you're better off buying older S&Ws that have been used but not abused. The starting quality was just better. But if you must buy new, make sure you can actually see and touch the gun before buying.
My last new S&W purchase was a 617-6 4". I really liked the feel and look, but I really couldn't try the double action pull at the LGS as that's just poor form, especially with a rimfire. When I got it home, the double action pull had to be somewhere between 15-20 pounds. A pull only a lawyer could love. I didn't send it back. I just opened it up, did some polishing of the internals, lubed it up, and put in a Wolff spring kit. Problem solved. But it's the last new S&W I buy.
hkcavalier
US Veteran
This is how it must have felt to buy an American car in in the late 1970s. All around sad.
daveyc
Member
oh boy. that is not within specs.
I will say though, I do not think this is anything new. business's have always been about getting product out and the bottom line. and every generation looks backwards and pines for the way it "used to be"
I think that we see so many bad examples because we see everything now. with socials and forums there is a giant megaphone that we all (myself included) can show how bad some products are. 50 years ago, we had our groups of friends and folks at the local gun shop to compare notes with. now we can see the bad apples from all over the world.
I last bought "new" Smith and Wessons back in the 00's. 15-20 years ago. and I had to send many of those back to the mother ship for various problems as well.
I hope Smith will fix/replace your revolver. that gap is atrocious.
I will say though, I do not think this is anything new. business's have always been about getting product out and the bottom line. and every generation looks backwards and pines for the way it "used to be"
I think that we see so many bad examples because we see everything now. with socials and forums there is a giant megaphone that we all (myself included) can show how bad some products are. 50 years ago, we had our groups of friends and folks at the local gun shop to compare notes with. now we can see the bad apples from all over the world.
I last bought "new" Smith and Wessons back in the 00's. 15-20 years ago. and I had to send many of those back to the mother ship for various problems as well.
I hope Smith will fix/replace your revolver. that gap is atrocious.
OP
Model 15-4ever
Member
This was purchased brand new in August, and I've never fired it. After two trips back to S&W, it now it looks like hell.
Apparently an unskilled and injudicious file is the main repair tool at the factory. When the cylinder keeps rubbing against the barrel shank, even after being replaced twice, you would think perhaps the frame or yoke barrel is out of spec. There is no thinking, or inspecting, going on at S&W Springfield.
Shipped back to them today. CS rep had no information about b/c spec, but apologized for the inconvenience. Gee, thanks.
How much $$$ to they have to lose in shipping, man hours and parts, to start making serious changes? I'm afraid it's time to burn it all down and start over a year from now somewhere else.
Apparently an unskilled and injudicious file is the main repair tool at the factory. When the cylinder keeps rubbing against the barrel shank, even after being replaced twice, you would think perhaps the frame or yoke barrel is out of spec. There is no thinking, or inspecting, going on at S&W Springfield.
Shipped back to them today. CS rep had no information about b/c spec, but apologized for the inconvenience. Gee, thanks.
How much $$$ to they have to lose in shipping, man hours and parts, to start making serious changes? I'm afraid it's time to burn it all down and start over a year from now somewhere else.
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