Justifiable is justifiable

[cracker57]

There have been many threads that I wanted to post this on but I decided to make it one of its own. When I read post like do you carry reloads on the street?, is it o.k. to carry zombie killers?, does it matter if I do a trigger job to my carry gun and have a 3# trigger?, can I yell out die you *** before pulling the trigger then shoot the bad guy 17 times, you get the picture I hope. The responses that gets me every time are:
"you can do that if its a justifiable shoot",
" a clean shoot is a clean shoot"
Just a reminder that you are not the one who gets to stamp the case file "Justifiable Shoot' that's the job of the D.A.
So it is true a clean shoot is a clean shoot as soon as the DA stamps the case file that way.

 

[Lost Lake]

People think the prosecutor will roll over but I don't.

What about that bystander you hit? You didn't mean to I know, but that 2lb hair trigger in a fire fight is going to be some real juicy evidence for the jury.

Or what if you maim the bad guy and he lives to sue you? Hair trigger and exploding bullets will be about three days of testimony. Bullet penetration and separation will be talked about ad nauseam.

I like my stock trigger and the same rounds the local PD uses. If I can't practice and hit a target with my stock trigger I should buy a different gun or have the manufacturer improve it.

 

[mc5aw]

If I ever find myself in a situation where I am in front of a win-at-all-costs prosecutor, I will be certain NOT to have given him/her and the government any additional ammunition (no pun intended) to prosecute the case nor sway a jury out of my favor. This includes, but is not limited to:

Hot-rodding a defensive firearm (light trigger, etc.) ...

Adorning a defensive firearm with accoutrements that can be misinterpreted as overtly aggressive or hostile (see Punisher logo grips, etc.) ...

Using specialty ammo that can be misinterpreted as overtly aggressive or hostile (see Zombie Killers, etc.) ...

I carry generic & functional firearms for self defense. Nothing fancy, nothing loud, nothing tough guy.

 

[venomballistics]

if its stone cold black and white justifiable ... nearly none of it matters ... for the other 99.99% of all shoots with a few shades of gray .. it all can matter

 

[Lost Lake]

Yeah, but some may get on the stand and be badgered into admitting they wish they didn't have to shoot the bad guy. Maybe they yelled 'Stay Back!' before they shot. Maybe the prosecutor will lead them down the long road of 'I'm sorry I shot the guy but he was threatening me....'

Then you get pounced on with trigger control and the jury is asked to do some finger exercises showing how difficult it is to keep their finger on a 2lb trigger while excited, fearful, running, ducking, whatever....

Then the prosecutor goes for the 'accidental' homicide because you had a lightened trigger and you really didn't want to have to kill the guy... and that missed shot - was that intentional or accidental? Accidental will get your insurance company involved and you could end up paying the rest of your life on some civil suit.

Why feed them the ammo they need to tear you a new one? Light triggers are for target guns, heavy triggers are for work.

 

[Chuck1217]

Gotta say I agree about stock guns, regular ammo. have said every time these topics come up, a LOT depends on the prosecutor. A local, fair, gun-tolerant one is fine, but even then if a state official wants you prosecuted he may push the local into it. But we just cannot take a chance that we get the 'right' one- there may be a young new guy in office, who just got out of a liberal college and hates guns, and will do everything to win- and of course there's the ambitious one who would do the same. No sense asking for trouble by modifying your stuff- Mas Ayoob agrees, too, in fcat that's where I massaged my own views..

 

[cshoff]

There have been many threads that I wanted to post this on but I decided to make it one of its own. When I read post like do you carry reloads on the street?, is it o.k. to carry zombie killers?, does it matter if I do a trigger job to my carry gun and have a 3# trigger?, can I yell out die you *** before pulling the trigger then shoot the bad guy 17 times, you get the picture I hope. The responses that gets me every time are:
"you can do that if its a justifiable shoot",
" a clean shoot is a clean shoot"
Just a reminder that you are not the one who gets to stamp the case file "Justifiable Shoot' that's the job of the D.A.
So it is true a clean shoot is a clean shoot as soon as the DA stamps the case file that way.

Your theory requires that we assume the DA or PA is a fair, unbiased, level-headed sort of person. We also have to assume that there is no political pressure on him/her from other interests that might "influence" the tenacity with which he/she might pursue criminal charges in such a case.

The truth is, your presumption of guilt or innocence is influenced by a LOT of factors that are entirely out of your control. For that reason, it defies logic to KNOWINGLY take risks with the few factors that are entirely in your control (such as with ammunition selection and firearm modifications).

 

[crofoot629]

Yelling out " die you xxxxx" is just plain dumb.

There's a lawyer attached to every round you fire.

Reloads are fine. But what you say can really get you in trouble.
My attitude would be to protect myself with the premise every shoot is going to be very closely examined. And the attitude of a clean shoot is a clean shoot sounds a little bit like you'd be inclined to talk when you should shut up. IMHO

Emory

 

[cmort666]

Or what if you maim the bad guy and he lives to sue you?

In the words of Spongebob, "Good luck with that!"

In Ohio he can sue... but not collect. Kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise, wouldn't you say?

Kind of makes it hard to find a lawyer too, since they tend to want to get PAID... and not in meth, crack or bath salts.

In Ohio, we don't think that violent predators who fail at their endeavors should be awarded consolation prizes...

 

[labworm]

If I ever find myself in a situation where I am in front of a win-at-all-costs prosecutor, I will be certain NOT to have given him/her and the government any additional ammunition (no pun intended) to prosecute the case nor sway a jury out of my favor. This includes, but is not limited to:

Hot-rodding a defensive firearm (light trigger, etc.) ...

Adorning a defensive firearm with accoutrements that can be misinterpreted as overtly aggressive or hostile (see Punisher logo grips, etc.) ...

Using specialty ammo that can be misinterpreted as overtly aggressive or hostile (see Zombie Killers, etc.) ...

I carry generic & functional firearms for self defense. Nothing fancy, nothing loud, nothing tough guy.

Since no one ever sees my carry gun or knows I have a gun, I agree 100% with your post.

 

[Lost Lake]

In the words of Spongebob, "Good luck with that!"

In Ohio he can sue... but not collect. Kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise, wouldn't you say?

Kind of makes it hard to find a lawyer too, since they tend to want to get PAID... and not in meth, crack or bath salts.

In Ohio, we don't think that violent predators who fail at their endeavors should be awarded consolation prizes...

Good for Ohio! I wish everywhere was like that....

OJ was acquitted (cough, cough) and was sued successfully in a civil trial. So it does happen!

And instead of a murder (justifiable or not) with no second opinion of how things went down, a wounded and maimed man could say you told him you weren't going to shoot and then you did! If you have a million dollar homeowner's policy, his lawyer will be licking his chops to get at that!

 

[Chuck1217]

Should you ever kill someone, and the prosecutor calls it 'good' and doesn't press charges- Ayoob said an important addition. In some states once that happens you're safe from civil suits- in some you aren't. What to do if you aren't sae? Ask a GOOD lawyer..think Ayoob said something about requesting a hearing or something, to legally, in court records, show iyou were justified. I'm no lawyer, so won't go on, just saying- know your laws, just like we say about other stuff.

 

[Old cop]

This is most likely due to following the rules during my 30 yr. LEO days (this was drilled into our heads) but beyond changing the grips, I do not modify a self defense gun. I learn to use it out of the box, carry quality factory self defense ammo and hope I never have to use it.

 

[cshoff]

This is most likely due to following the rules during my 30 yr. LEO days (this was drilled into our heads) but beyond changing the grips, I do not modify a self defense gun. I learn to use it out of the box, carry quality factory self defense ammo and hope I never have to use it.

+1. There are literally hundreds of different makes/models/styles of handguns on the market. If the carry gun you have is so cantankerous that you must get it "modified" in order to get along with it, why not just choose one of the other makes/models on the market that is probably set up the way you want it in the first place?

 

[cmort666]

This is most likely due to following the rules during my 30 yr. LEO days (this was drilled into our heads) but beyond changing the grips, I do not modify a self defense gun. I learn to use it out of the box, carry quality factory self defense ammo and hope I never have to use it.

When I bought it, I didn't realize that my Glock 22 had a NY trigger. There's no way on earth I'd have the slightest confidence in my ability to hit anything with that abomination. As long as it was in, I was more worried about hitting a bystander than getting an ND. It was gone VERY quickly.

 

[1morethan8]

I don't see why I couldn't use a modified gun, if the reason was to be sure it was the most reliable that it could be made to protect my life.
I also don't see any reason any ammo that fits the gun couldn't be used. If I thought it was the best available to save my life or another in immediate danger.

Oh.. you don't need a light trigger to hit a by-stander... the cops did it the other day in NY.

 

[cshoff]

I don't see why I couldn't use a modified gun, if the reason was to be sure it was the most reliable that it could be made to protect my life.

Well, you certainly COULD. But, while you say this modification was made to make the gun more reliable, is it not true that it also makes it easier to fire? In this case, where you were under such a high degree of stress, can you be sure that this modification didn't make the gun TOO EASY to fire? Or is that the real reason why you made this modification in the first place, Mr. 1mt8?

I also don't see any reason any ammo that fits the gun couldn't be used. If I thought it was the best available to save my life or another in immediate danger.

Well your choice of ammunition certainly seemed to work well enough on the deceased, but I have to question your choice of such a devastating round when the propensity for a pass through was so great. In fact, it is my contention that it was that very choice that is directly responsible for the critical injury sustained by my client, who was nothing more than an innocent bystander during this altercation. Had you made a more prudent ammunition selection, my client might still have use of his legs and be able to maintain gainful employment. As it stands now, he will be paralyzed from the waist down for the rest of his life.

Oh.. you don't need a light trigger to hit a by-stander... the cops did it the other day in NY.

It happens. Far too often.

Anyway, you get the idea. Anything and everything can be called into question by a prosecutor or civil attorney. That doesn't mean it WILL be called into question, just that it CAN be. It is for this reason that we are best off to mitigate any potential liability when we can, where we can, and as often as we can - because AFTER a shooting, it is too late.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Oh.. you don't need a light trigger to hit a by-stander... the cops did it the other day in NY.

If you bothered to watch the video of the shooting you would find that your analogy is incorrect and irresponsible.

Google it a see for yourself. The two cops did everything they could to not get shot and stop the bad guy on a busy NY sidewalk.

I'd like to see you and other nay sayers in the same video.

 

[snubbyfan]

I have a degenerative peripheral nerve condition.
The grips on my 442 have been changed, a Laserlyte sidemount laser added and I've done a trigger job. The grip makes it easier to hold and the trigger's just light enough for me to shoot with either hand. I load it with 110 grain Federal Hydrashok .38 Special to avoid overpenetration and I carry a full reload "just in case."
Nothing fancy, nothing "tactical," just a depedable little self defense snubby modified just enough for me to be able to shoot accurately.

 

[WR Moore]

I also don't see any reason any ammo that fits the gun couldn't be used. If I thought it was the best available to save my life or another in immediate danger.

You really want to go into court with, say Billy Joe Jim Bobs Ninja Death Touch (Just one touch and he daid!) ammunition? Think an DA with an agenda would pass that up? As a actual example, there's a DRT ammunition company. I don't really care what they claim the name of the company is, any DA with an axe to grind is gonna put people on the stand who will testify that's an expression for 'dead right there'.

Stick with the products of major manufacturers, if it's the same type/brand as LLEA uses, so much the better. The DA can hardly beat on you for evil intent, if it's (essentially) the same stuff the cops use. If it's tried, using local police academy instructors as witnesses should take care of the issue.

Remember, if you should make it to trial, the jury isn't gonna have one gun owner on it if the DA is on the ball in jury selection. If your attorney is on the ball, neither is anyone from various gun ban organizations. But, they've all been indocrinated that (hand)guns are evil and those who use them either criminals or psychologically lacking.

A lot is going to depend upon where you are, who you have an issue with, if it's and election year and most importantly, what kind of person the DA is.

Remember, you're betting the rest of your life, your net worth and that of your family's. You're also paying 1/4-1/2 the cost of your house for legal representation. Why make things harder than they have to be? Yes, you may be able to call rebuttal expert witnesses, but you're paying on the order of $2000/day plus expenses in the hopes yours will be more believable. You're the ultimate potential loser in this thing. Also recall the civil suit someone else mentioned. The verdict in that case is NOT beyond a reasonable doubt.