Knife vs Gun - 21 Foot Rule

[KSDeputy]

We had a training class on that. Every deputy, including myself, was "stabbed" with a rubber knife before we could react and get our firearm out.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I think that the 21 foot rule is useless information. We need all the footages based on what steps we have taken.

1. Carry concealed distance
2. Open carry distance (21 foot rule)
3. Hand on the butt of your gun distance.
4. Weapon drawn but pointed to the ground distance.
5. Weapon drawn and on aim distance (finger outside trigger guard).
6. Weapon drawn, on aim, finger on trigger distance.

Distances 1 and 2 seem fairly useless to me. It really suggests that you don't recognize that the bad guy is a threat.

Distances 3, 4, 5 and 6 seem to be useful to know. But I've never seen anything written on those scenarios.

As V0OBWxZS16 said, THERE IS NO 21-FOOT RULE! There is no Tueller rule, either; there is a Tueller DRILL. It is an experiment that you and friends can perform for yourselves, or even instruct a jury how to perform for themselves. It consists of getting a stopwatch and a bunch of adolescent or adult males (the most likely assailants) and timing each one of them to see how long it takes for them to cover some medium distance and stab you with a rolled-up newspaper. You look at this list of times, ranging, from one example, from 1.3 to 1.8 seconds for 21 feet, and see how it compares to your own measured time for drawing and firing a weapon. If you aren't James Clark's son-in-law, it is probably going to turn your 21-foot drill into a 35-foot rule.

The six above-listed scenarios are a good start for making these comparisons, but it quickly becomes obvious that unless the assailant shouts his intentions from across the street, by the time you know what's going on, you're already behind - way behind. You need other ways to avoid or counter an assailant with a knife, if you're fortunate enough even to see the attack coming.

21-foot rule? NO. E-mail rule. If he communicates a threat by e-mail, you don't need to draw. If he does it in person from any place other than across the freeway, you need to get furniture, cars or trees between you and him while you're drawing your gun.

 

[Magload]

But that is for a uniformed police officer, yes? For carry conceal you have to add for clearing the concealing garment.

I've thought about this for a while now. I wonder how useful this information is.

If the guy is 21 feet away and displaying a knife, then you'd think you'd have your hand on the butt of your gun at least. That would allow you to get off your first shot a bit quicker.

Or if he has the knife out and seems menacing you might have your weapon drawn--shaving more time off.

Or if he is really agitated you might have your target acquired shaving more time off. At some point you might have you trigger finger on the trigger instead of outside the trigger guard.

Of course if you don't know he has a knife, then the 21 foot rule is moot. You don't know he has a knife and you don't worry about a threat and you pay no attention to the 21 foot rule.

I wonder how many feet the rule would be if your weapon was out and aimed and your finger was on the trigger? 5 feet? 8 feet? 9 feet? 10? Certainly not 21 feet.

So if you don't know that they bad guy is carrying a knife (or a tire iron) you don't implement the 21 foot rule, and if you do know you have taken one or several of the preliminary steps making the rule much, much shorter (but how much we don't know because everyone is satisfied because we have the "21 foot rule").

I think that the 21 foot rule is useless information. We need all the footages based on what steps we have taken.

1. Carry concealed distance
2. Open carry distance (21 foot rule)
3. Hand on the butt of your gun distance.
4. Weapon drawn but pointed to the ground distance.
5. Weapon drawn and on aim distance (finger outside trigger guard).
6. Weapon drawn, on aim, finger on trigger distance.

Distances 1 and 2 seem fairly useless to me. It really suggests that you don't recognize that the bad guy is a threat.

Distances 3, 4, 5 and 6 seem to be useful to know. But I've never seen anything written on those scenarios.

Just because you have the gun out finger on the trigger and POA center mass doesn't mean a double tap to the chest is going to stop him from sticking that knife in you.

 

[Magload]

Well I think I am changing my EDC to a long blade knife and HD to a machete. At least I will have a equal chance and if the guy has a gun I will just use the 21 foot rule to my advantage. The neighbors will be safer along with my walls and house hold goods.

 

[Packard]

If you are old enough to pull this off, a walking/fighting stick (walking cane/fighting cane) can be very effective.

If you are too young you will either look like you must be crippled or you will look like a foppish dandy.

I carry the Blackswift Raven fighting stick. I don't use it to bear any weight, I just use it for the cadence while walking. No need to draw it out, it is already in hand. With a 36" reach it keeps a knife wielding thug at bay. Drop it on the floor and grab your gun at any time. I practice on a heavy bag. You really don't want to get hit with this thing. I have no doubt that my practiced strikes would break a radius or ulna bone if it struck the forearm. Or simply crush a wrist.

And sometimes you just don't want to shoot someone, even if they represent a threat.

Here is the Blackswift Raven. I believe it is made from a solid core fiberglass golf shaft. It appears to be indestructible. Not so the graphite version that is hollow. I broke that the first day (they replaced it for free).

BlackSwift Sticks - walking stick self defense

The Raven features a mace head that won't roll off a flat surface (an advantage when you want to rest it against the wall).

There are many videos on line showing it in use. But once you get used to walking with a walking stick you won't want to give it up. They claim it is OK for airline travel. I have not tried that yet. But that would be an advantage too.

But if you use it as a weapon the bad guy better have one too, or you will have some legal difficulties.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

It all comes down to "SA", situational awareness.

Be aware of your surroundings.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

So what I'm reading here is that if the bear attacking you is armed with a knife you're pretty well screwed.

 

[KLYDE]

Until you've been unlucky enough to have experienced someone seriously and earnestly trying their best to stab/gut you with a blade, this is often a subject of conjecture and theory. If you've been able to attend some applicable, relevant and properly done training, it's another 'what if' scenario that's hopefully addressed with the attention and seriousness it deserves.

Even realistic training can't really prepare you for experiencing the effects of the huge adrenaline dump, while trying function while experiencing the very real effects of a hormonal fear response. Someone's really trying to kill you.

In my case I had the slight advantage of having been training in various martial arts for approx 10 years, including practicing against non-gun weapons.

When it happened, if happened fast. Even with a verbalized threat of what the attacker in my case said he intended to do to me, the act itself seemed to take on a surreal and frightening speed. Fortunately, I was able to get away from the point of the blade and avoid the attacker's lunging sweep with his blade. The attacker was thrown off balance.

Looking at the video footage afterward, I shuddered to realize that if I'd been only a fraction of a second slower in creating distance, I'd not have avoided the blade. If I'd hesitated in the least, trying to consciously decide what to do, I have no doubt I'd have ended up with a 5-6" wooden-handled kitchen boning knife deep in my gut. (Yes, I still have a very clear visual of the attack, more than 30 years later, while typing this.)

In future situations (after I became a working cop), where I encountered someone brandishing and threatening with a blade, I never forgot that earlier lesson about creating distance and looking for a way to use not only distance, but any situational element (like furniture, parked car, etc), to my advantage.

Training may help prevent some folks from into 'brain lock' at the realization of an unexpected and immediate life threatening attack. Hopefully stop some folks from defaulting to the FREEZE part of the apparently 'hard-wired', FREEZE, FLIGHT or FIGHT response.

First, by helping provide an ingrained trained response appropriate to the situation, without having to stop and consciously think about what to do and how to do it, and then try to do it.

Secondly, by hopefully preparing someone to be able to effectively physically function even while experiencing the adrenaline dump, stress and fear response involved. It's been described as having applicable, realistic training help "inoculate" someone against some of the very real effects of sudden and severe stress.

Just my thoughts.

Could not have been said better. Unless you have been there you cannot begin to understand what you will experience. "Happens FAST" is an understatement. Even if you are prepared and ready with gun in hand the attacker will be upon you almost before your brain can register what is happening.

 

[Packard]

It all comes down to "SA", situational awareness.

Be aware of your surroundings.

"Situational awareness" is one of those phrases that make sense on the surface but are impossible to implement.

It fits in the same catagory as advise to the widower, "Cheer up." when there is no mechanism for him to do so.

Or, "Get over it." to the parent of a recently deceased child.

It is not only a waste of words it is offensive.

You are aware of what you are aware of. Nothing more, nothing less.

So the sweet looking old lady with the white hair and shopping cart gets ignored, but maybe she has a saber in her shopping cart.

Or the well-dressed man in an expensive suit, rep necktie and white shirt, and highly polished shoes is considered a non-threat when in fact he is a highly paid assassin.

And the poorly dressed Latino or black is assessed as a potential threat but is merely low on funds.

Your ability be aware of situations is fixed individual by individual. There are training methods for improving situational awareness but I think they are less effective in protecting you than spending time on handgun practice and martial arts practice.

And what if you are very good at situational awareness but are engrossed in a task or talking to a very interesting person. In those cases your awareness plummets.

In any case I think the expression is bandied about with little purpose served.

Cheer up. Get over it.

 

[dougb1946]

Shooting at the ace of spades is quite different than shooting at a charging maniac.

I was there and I know. That's about all I'll say.

Card no fight back.

Anyone who hunts deer knows that an angry or scared deer can run a long way after taking multiple hits, even through the heart. So can an angry or drugged up threat. TV had an evil gun story about a cop hitting the BG with every shot in the revolver, BG got his own gun and killed the cop.

 

[Arik]

"Situational awareness" is one of those phrases that make sense on the surface but are impossible to implement.

It fits in the same catagory as advise to the widower, "Cheer up." when there is no mechanism for him to do so.

Or, "Get over it." to the parent of a recently deceased child.

It is not only a waste of words it is offensive.

You are aware of what you are aware of. Nothing more, nothing less.

So the sweet looking old lady with the white hair and shopping cart gets ignored, but maybe she has a saber in her shopping cart.

Or the well-dressed man in an expensive suit, rep necktie and white shirt, and highly polished shoes is considered a non-threat when in fact he is a highly paid assassin.

And the poorly dressed Latino or black is assessed as a potential threat but is merely low on funds.

Your ability be aware of situations is fixed individual by individual. There are training methods for improving situational awareness but I think they are less effective in protecting you than spending time on handgun practice and martial arts practice.

And what if you are very good at situational awareness but are engrossed in a task or talking to a very interesting person. In those cases your awareness plummets.

In any case I think the expression is bandied about with little purpose served.

Cheer up. Get over it.

I kinda agree with that. It sounds good in theory but unless you never leave the house or live in a one horse town situational awareness is not easy to implement

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Packard,

I like your post and consider it a breath of fresh air, but I do think that some people (possibly including myself at one time) are so anaesthetic that just a reminder to keep an eye on their surroundings is a contribution. However, that probably does not apply to most on this forum. I agree that without actual specific constructive suggestions, the expression is worth little.

Thanks for throwing your $.02 in.

520

 

[g8rb8]

So what I'm reading here is that if the bear attacking you is armed with a knife you're pretty well screwed.

Darn bears with knives. Pretty soon they'll be flying drones.

Okay. Okay. Sorry. Not to make light of or take anything away from the serious opinions expressed here. Some excellent points are made. The main take away points seems to be situational awareness and avoidance. Reasonable points.

Thank goodness bears use situational awareness and avoidance around humans.

Originally Posted by Packard
"Situational awareness" is one of those phrases that make sense on the surface but are impossible to implement.......

You are aware of what you are aware of. Nothing more, nothing less...........

And what if you are very good at situational awareness but are engrossed in a task or talking to a very interesting person. In those cases your awareness plummets....

Yes. Packard makes a good point regarding situational awareness. I would partially disagree with his statement about "impossible to implement" and suggest it's impossible to implement 100% of the time or anywhere near 100% of the time. It sort of like the worry about bears. Even though both (bears and situational awareness) are much discussed I'd guess 99.99% of the time it's not too relevant. That 0.01% of the time it's relevant you might be able to turn the odds in your favor by being appropriately vigilant (i.e. situational aware) but not always.

Regardless this is an interesting thread and much of the information posted is informative.

 

[Packard]

One summer in my college years I spent a good bit of time at the beach as I could not find suitable employment (or maybe I was lazy).

I was on the beach with some friends on a very windy afternoon and a runaway beach umbrella was flying across the sand like a large colorful tumbleweed.

I think we all saw it. But I was the one that reacted.

I jumped up from the blanket, grabbed the arm of a sunbathing college age girl and yanked her off her blanket. The shaft of the umbrella skewered the blanket right where she had lain and buried itself about 6 inches deep.

Of course the girl had undone her bikini top to get an overall tan so when I yanked her up she covered her breasts with her arms and yelled, "You pig!"

I pointed to the blanket with the umbrella shaft buried deep where she had been seconds before and she threw up.

One of the guys pulled up the umbrella and she grabbed her stuff and left.

She never thanked me other than saying, "You pig!"

We were all situationally aware. I guess I was the only one to work out the trajectory or was the only one with the sense to yank her out of the way.

My suspicion is that the umbrella shaft (about 1¼" in diameter) would have done some serious damage.

But how do you train for that?

There were a few more similar events that I participated in. None seemed to endanger me, but all required a instantaneous response.

So even if you are situationally aware, are you going to respond in an appropriate way? ("You pig!!")

Strangely for years I never spoke of any of these events. For reasons that have always escaped me I was discomforted by the events even though in each case I had possibly (or likely probably) saved a life.

 

[Mister X]

Keep in mind that many times people who draw a knife on you do so as a bluff or scare tactic to achieve a different goal rather than actually cutting or stabbing you. If someone truly wants to harm or kill you with a knife, it would likely go down much like a prison shanking... suddenly and without warning. No matter how situationally aware you might be, you would likely need quick, dynamic movement to escape and/or unarmed defense skills to access and effectively use your firearm.

This video illustrates some important realities although I would not say what he labels myths are not possible since every scenario is different as are the individuals involved.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=21Mc9IxpYRM[/ame]

 

[Fastbolt]

"Situational awareness" is one of those phrases that make sense on the surface but are impossible to implement.

...

Your ability be aware of situations is fixed individual by individual. There are training methods for improving situational awareness but I think they are less effective in protecting you than spending time on handgun practice and martial arts practice.

And what if you are very good at situational awareness but are engrossed in a task or talking to a very interesting person. In those cases your awareness plummets.

In any case I think the expression is bandied about with little purpose served.

...

One of the problems with the term 'situational awareness' having entered our daily language is that it can often mean different things to different people, and the context can quickly shift when it's used by different people.

In order to most effectively use "SA", it probably requires most folks gain (meaning being taught) some understanding of what's involved and how to benefit from its "use".

Then, they have to be able to seamlessly integrate it into their normal lives and activities, like learning how to avoid stumbling over a raised curb, misplaced toy or cavorting puppy/kitten around your feet (and you know how that can catch you by surprise when least expected ).

It's another trained, and hopefully ingrained, skillset.

Then, there's the degree of situational awareness being used. Having some warning of potential trouble is one thing, but not being aware enough once trouble is upon you to be able to use good judgment and make correct decisions (like whether deadly force is lawful and appropriate to the circumstances) can get you in serious trouble, too.

A discussion of SA can sometimes benefit by the inclusion of how the OODA Loop actually works, and may be applied in a range of situations in our normal lives, but especially when exigent circumstances may come our way.

Instead of just "being aware", some insight into what you're trying to be aware of, and how you can learn to be able to identify it when it comes along, and then how to be able to not only "observe" it, but to "orient" on it and be able to access your decision-making and action responses.

In other words, it's not just being able to attain the "oh poop" stage of seeing what's happened to you.

 

[RSanch111]

Simply not true in my opinion. I've spent 30 studying the blade arts and only a fraction of that time extensively studying the finer points of using the handgun in close quarters, but give me the handgun anytime, at any distance, in any situation.

Well, consider this. Before you know the guy you're about to do battle with has a knife, he's probably going to already be right on top of you. He's not going to be 50 feet away and say: "Hey, your wife is a fat pig!" And then come stalking over while you get your gun ready. He's going to be behind you in line at the Walmart, your wife or kid is going to set him off for some reason, he's going to pull his knife out if he doesn't already have it in hand behind his leg, and he's going to act. You're going to have to react to this crazy man who probably already cut you before you realized what was going on, despite all the time you spend in "condition yellow" or whatever color you're supposed to be in.

You're not going to get your pistol out as fast as you do at the range or while practicing at home, because life just doesn't work that way. You're not always going to notice the nutjob or threat despite all of the Ayoob books you've read or Cooper war stories you've heard, because that's not the way life works either.

Have you ever watched anyone die up close after being shot through the lungs or gut or throat with a .38 or 9mm round or ROUNDS? It takes a LONG time while you're standing over them watching them die. Plenty long enough to cut your throat. All I can say is: While you're using your preferred weapon to end the threat, you'd better do it FAST and you'd better get them in the head. Before they swing their arm in an arc and slice you from throat to crotch using gross motor ability.

Personally, I think the poster who cautions us to not have so much confidence in our guns is 100% reasonable.

 

[Mister X]

Well, consider this. Before you know the guy you're about to do battle with has a knife, he's probably going to already be right on top of you. He's not going to be 50 feet away and say: "Hey, your wife is a fat pig!" And then come stalking over while you get your gun ready. He's going to be behind you in line at the Walmart, your wife or kid is going to set him off for some reason, he's going to pull his knife out if he doesn't already have it in hand behind his leg, and he's going to act. You're going to have to react to this crazy man who probably already cut you before you realized what was going on, despite all the time you spend in "condition yellow" or whatever color you're supposed to be in.

You're not going to get your pistol out as fast as you do at the range or while practicing at home, because life just doesn't work that way. You're not always going to notice the nutjob or threat despite all of the Ayoob books you've read or Cooper war stories you've heard, because that's not the way life works either.

Have you ever watched anyone die up close after being shot through the lungs or gut or throat with a .38 or 9mm round or ROUNDS? It takes a LONG time while you're standing over them watching them die. Plenty long enough to cut your throat. All I can say is: While you're using your preferred weapon to end the threat, you'd better do it FAST and you'd better get them in the head. Before they swing their arm in an arc and slice you from throat to crotch using gross motor ability.

Personally, I think the poster who cautions us to not have so much confidence in our guns is 100% reasonable.

I've said in my other posts that you need unarmed skills and movement initially to transition to ANY weapon your carrying whether it be a gun, a knife, an impact weapon or pepper spray. The individuals involved and the specifics of the particular situation dictate what the proper tactics will likely be most effective, but there are no guarantees. I carry both knife and gun, but I'm drawing my gun given a choice between the two against a blade. There really is not much of a difference in speed of accessing either one. I'm pretty confidant I can most likely shut someone down attacking me with a knife a heck of a lot quicker with a close quarter CNS shot compared with disabling mechanical cuts, slitting their throat or shanking them repeatedly.

 

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

Here in Hawaii, there are More martial artists than many people can know.

The little old Filipino/Japanese/Chinese or any other Asian may be a Master

of his ancestries' fighting art(s).

You do Not want to mess with them, they know more ways to Hurt/Kill than you can imagine.

Probably most, if not all have defended themselves(or others) in Real Street Fights, and won.

I have several friends who are belted in their respective martial art.

Yes, they have been in Real Street fights against multiple assailants and walked away.

One has Killed an attacking, trained German Shepard with his bare Hand.

Same guy demonstrated to me(empty gun in hand) how fast he took the gun away from me before I could pull the trigger. He was "nice", when he got thru I was still standing. He told me if it was a "for Real" situation, I would have been unconscious and badly hurt on the ground.

They do not "play nice" in a street fight.
All bets are off and they make Sure that every action they take will result in the other guy Down and out of the fight.

Makes me amazed and wonder about my little old Filipino yard guy.
He climbed my 60 foot mango tree and with his small Stihl chainsaw had the tree trimmed and cut back down to less then 20 feet in short order.

I Know there are people out there that Waay better and faster than I am with or with out weapons(or anything in their hands), fortunately, these guys are the Good guys. They are more likely to help you than hurt you.

For guys like this, 100 yards is too close.

 

[Hubcap91]

A friend of mine just went through the police academy here in Kentucky. This came up in conversation a while back and he told me that they have bumped it up to 30ft.