LabRadar Review - 12/5/15 Update to OP

[Nemo288]

I was emailed a week or 2 ago asking me to verify or change my card info.
They said they were going thru all the orders as it was so long many had gotten new cards issued.
(Mine was)
I talked to them on the phone and am promised one "2nd week in April" which I guess is now.
Nice to hear they are now rolling out.

 

[Magload]

I was emailed a week or 2 ago asking me to verify or change my card info.
They said they were going thru all the orders as it was so long many had gotten new cards issued.
(Mine was)
I talked to them on the phone and am promised one "2nd week in April" which I guess is now.
Nice to hear they are now rolling out.

Same here got the email also and talked to them on the phone. I ordered mine Jan 4th. Guess I should check my bank account.

 

[Nemo288]

Well they are real.
They took my money Sunday (?) and it arrived today (Thursday).
I won't get a chance to get to the range until next week and the maximum distance there is 20 yards (indoors).
I'll give a review after that.
The manual does have a little chart in the back confirming what I suspected about the performance vs. the caliber.
Standard power:
.223 - 40-60 yards
.308 - 80-100 yards
.355 - 100-130 yards
This is right in line with the OP Twoboxer's report.
I think my 44's may be able to use the low power setting indoors at short range and still give good readings.
I usually shoot next to the wall and they suggest trying that mode in such a case.

I could have done without all the "steal me!" labels all over everything for the same reason I don't have a
"Protected by Smith & Wesson" sticker on my truck. (Or any other stickers for that matter).
But what-ya-gonna-do?

I still think this company has the craziest marketing scheme I ever saw but I wish them well.
Maybe one day they will have these on the shelf and ship the next day.
I get the idea from talking to the man (way after hours) that this place is like early Silicon Valley outfits and being run out of a garage.
My Mom went to Palo Alto High with Dave Packard and witnessed that scene.

 

[Vortec MAX]

Is there a setting other than "standard power" which will track projectiles further out than is stated above?

Mike

 

[Twoboxer]

Is there a setting other than "standard power" which will track projectiles further out than is stated above?

Mike

Yes , one other setting which is a lower power to meet regs in other countries.

My experience is that on standard (full) power *my* LabRadar will not track 308 or 30-06 much beyond 50 yards.

I'm still trying to figure out what value that data has anyhow.

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . I could have done without all the "steal me!" labels all over everything for the same reason I don't have a "Protected by Smith & Wesson" sticker on my truck. (Or any other stickers for that matter). But what-ya-gonna-do?

I still think this company has the craziest marketing scheme I ever saw but I wish them well.
Maybe one day they will have these on the shelf and ship the next day.
I get the idea from talking to the man (way after hours) that this place is like early Silicon Valley outfits and being run out of a garage.
My Mom went to Palo Alto High with Dave Packard and witnessed that scene.

Agree on the gaudy orange and mega-point type for the logos lol.

The most benign reason for the "marketing strategy" I can come up with: Once they were significantly delayed and then couldn't come up with supply there was no sense spending money vreating demand.

 

[Nemo288]

I'm still trying to figure out what value that data has anyhow.

I am interested in calculating the BC of several 44 bullets at velocities the factory may never have tested.
Velocity curves out to or past 100 yards will be valuable in this pursuit.
This is a long term project.
I'll make a different thread for this once I have some solid data.
One example is the difference between the 2 265 grain 444 bullets Hornady makes.
One is the old JFP and the other is the newer FTX with it's spire point and plastic tip.
Be nice to know just how much more range one can get with the newer bullet.
Also bullet terminal performance is based on the velocity at the target.
Many of us have no idea what this is.
Supposedly you can calculate this from the muzzle velocity and the BC but the experts warn us this is not very accurate or so simple.
The BC changes as the velocity changes. Dramatically so as Mach 1 is passed.
Now we need calculus and that is over my head these days.
Much easier to just measure the answer.

 

[Twoboxer]

I am interested in calculating the BC of several 44 bullets at velocities the factory may never have tested. Velocity curves out to or past 100 yards will be valuable in this pursuit.. . .

Sorry. Guess I was focused pretty much on rifles where BC out to 100 yds isn't terribly relevant. Never considered that velocity at ~100 yds might be of interest to anyone.

With a large caliber bullet - certainly larger than 30 cal - you might get a 100 yd reading. I'll have to test that next time out with a 230gr 45 cal. (I did that once before, don't recall getting readings beyond 75yds, but my memory these days is, well, unreliable ) Also interesting might be the velocities that LabRadar records every millisecond beginning 13ms after firing. Should be out again this weekend, will let you know here what I find.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Very nice equipment, good luck with it.

If your interested in velocity's at distances beyond it's range, could you re-stage the device at the distance limit and shoot next to it (behind protection) and detect it's flight again?

 

[Magload]

Well I don't know where I am on the list but after talking to them on the phone the first of the month and told they would ship the second week I have not seen mine.

 

[Twoboxer]

Very nice equipment, good luck with it.

If your interested in velocity's at distances beyond it's range, could you re-stage the device at the distance limit and shoot next to it (behind protection) and detect it's flight again?

No, you can't. The unit is triggered by either the sound of your firearm discharging, or a mechanical trigger (used for archery and pellet guns). The former will not work at distance and the latter cannot be timed properly.

 

[Nemo288]

In fact the manual states the closer the muzzle of the gun is to the radar the more accurate the readings.
This has to be traded off with damaging the unit with the overpressure.
I figure mounting the rechargeable battery pack where they recommend and then shooting next to it may deflect some of the blast.
It's a lot cheaper than the radar.

 

[Twoboxer]

I am interested in calculating the BC of several 44 bullets at velocities the factory may never have tested.
Velocity curves out to or past 100 yards will be valuable in this pursuit.. . .

Was out to the 100yd range today with my 30-06 and 45ACP. Was able to test how far out velocity readings could be expected. (Got a few strange looks when I pulled out the 45 lol.)

Used my 45ACP soft target loads (725-750fps, 230gr PRN) and fired 10 rounds at 100yds. One was tracked to 82yds, the other 9 to 85yds.

For comparison, 25 Sierra 175gr TMKs with a muzzle velocity of ~2875fps were tracked from 62-79 yds with most, as expected, in the lower 70s.

 

[Magload]

I really don't care beyond 10 feet as that is where most of the test data in gun magazine is taken at. It I know the muzzle velocity and the specs of the bullet ballistics should give me petty much what it is doing at any range. BTW they answered my email and said mine will ship this next week.

 

[bwpaterson]

I think there is a supply constraint, but I just got mine. I ordered from manufacture and of course was placed on waiting list last November. When I saw Midway was to have them I signed up for notification and figured I would take which came first and canceled the other order. Well when I read Midways email notification it was 6 hours old and again they were out. I signed up again.

In March LabRadar contacted me to verify that my credit card info was still correct. I called them and verified and was told that my unit would arrive mid April. It has. Just after the credit card verification I got email from Midway saying they were in. I went right then and could have ordered, but did not since I knew mine was on the way. Shortly after the Midway email they were back to having you give email address to be notified when next shipment came in.
I think it was worth the wait and would recommend you order from LabRadar and wait. Eventually they will catch up with production. I have only used once and can echo a post above that you need to read the manual.

 

[Nemo288]

I finally did get to the range and have a couple of comments.
Mostly about revolvers as they seem to be a special case not really covered in the manual.
I set up for a trigger range of 12" and a sensitivity of 1 (most sensitive I think).
My first shot (these were all 44 special out of 696's or a 4" 624) shut the unit off and it rebooted; no data.
I moved the gun further away and finally started getting some data but most of the SD were rediculous compared to the previous few loads I had chrono'd optically.
Then I remembered the muzzle brake instructions that any side blast had to be kept in front of the radar.
I pulled the radar back some (the desk/bench is pretty narrow at this range) and pushed the gun forward on the sandbags so just the butt was on a bag.
This got the cylinder gap in front of the radar and things started going a whole lot more smoothly.
One load (the most powerful in fact) gave me a SD of 2.
This got me thinking about the timing of the acoustic trigger which is based on the bang happening just as the bullet leaves the barrel.
Well revolvers don't do this and I have to believe the longer the revolver barrel the more advanced in time the unit will trigger compared to what it expects.
Next time out I will be playing with the sensitivity setting and also the distance setting.
Maybe if it believes the gun is at 6" and you really are at 12-18" that may compensate for the timing error.
If I wasn't so lazy I suppose I could calculate at least a ball park figure for the barrel time of the bullet and then the distance that represents at Mach 1.
Since 44 special is immediately sub-sonic I guess I could start by just adding the barrel length plus another inch or 2 to the distance between the gun and the radar.

Here are the results from my "Skeeter" 210 JHC load:

Units velocity fps ______696ND *- CCI300 8.5 Universal
Units distances ft _________Sierra 210 JHC
Units kinetic energy ft-lbf
Units weight grain (gr)
Stats Average 1055.18 fps
Stats Highest 1057.92 fps
Stats Lowest 1052.59 fps
Stats Ext. Spread 5.33 fps
Stats Std. Dev 2.15 fps
Shot ... V0 V20 V30 V40 V50 V60
1 1055 1047 1043 1039 1035 1032
2 1053 1041 1034 1028 1024 1021
3 1057 1049 1045 1040 1037 1035
4 1054 1044 1040 1035 1030 1028
5 1058 1048 1043 1038 1033 1029

Needless to say I won't be shooting many of these.

In a 1.5 hour range session I chewed thru most of the capacity of the 6 AA cells.
I will be moving to the rechargeable battery pack.
This may also block some of the side blast of the revolvers because of where it mounts.

 

[Twoboxer]

Yes, IMO a rechargeable battery pack is a "necessary" option.

The velcro tape and cable that come with LabRadar's pack are tailored to the application and work very well. That pack lasts me at least 12 hours with a *lot* of "armed" time. But you might get one (equal to it or larger) cheaper at (eg) Amazon - I bought one as a spare.

From this in the manual . . .

"You should position your firearm no greater than 18" from the side of the radar. If you are shooting a firearms that may discharge debris that could strike the radar it may be best to move the firearm slightly forward so the muzzle, cylinder gap, ejecting cases or other discharge will not damage your LabRadar."

. . . it seems LR expects some variability in the position of revolver muzzles (or any firearm's muzzle).

From the next sentence in the manual . . .

"Upon firing the shot, the radar unit will begin recording and will continually track the bullet, reporting numerous velocities along its path. Based upon the large amount of data gathered from the tracked projectile the muzzle velocity can also be determined."

. . . while LR is triggered by the firearm's report, LR apparently back-calculates the MV from downrange data. The most likely method would be to assume the muzzle is exactly at or slightly in front of the LR . . . which it may not exactly be. Maybe they build in a different position assumption for rifle, handgun, and archery . . . and maybe they don't. Dunno.

All that would have some effect on precision, but it should be pretty small (likely a lot less error than how close your optical chrono was to (eg) 10' away) and hopefully it's built into the quoted accuracy rate.

Might be an interesting question to ask LabRadar.

 

[Nemo288]

a) Yes, IMO a rechargeable battery pack is a "necessary" option.
b) Based upon the large amount of data gathered from the tracked projectile the muzzle velocity can also be determined."

a) I did buy the rechargeable pack and put the velcro on but wanted to see what it did with regular batteries first time out.
Guess I found out.

b)Thanks for the cogent reply.
Now that I think of it, the unit should be able to tell the distance at which it first "picks up" the bullet by the return time of that first pulse.

I'll try to keep this stuff in mind next time I head out in a few days.
I may try a couple of .44 rifles. This radar is really the only easy way to chrono a double rifle.
The firmware must be pretty elaborate. Radars are not just a microwave transceiver.
I spent 15 years maintaining high power microwave long distance (40 miles) relay sites but know very little of radar.
Many of the fine engineering details have been kept quiet for obvious reasons.

 

[bwpaterson]

I want to thank Twoboxer for his excellent review of the LabRadar and would like to add my 2 cents worth. I got mine last week and put in 6 AA batteries and played with it. When I went to the range they were dead. I must have turned on by accident. Today with fresh batteries I used the unit for 3 hours and have 3 bars left. I did take a usb battery with me just incase.

I got some crazy readings such as 303 or 306 for velocity. I was shooting a 9mm and was expecting 1200 fps. Most were registering correctly. I called LabRadar from range and a nice guy who answered the phone listed to issue and then said I needed to talk to tech guy who was on the phone. He would call me back. He did 10 minutes later. One of the reasons for the error is that at 50yds there as a 8" steel plate and he thought that the signal was bouncing off this. I relocated and it seemed to work most of the time. The line up is important. He also said usually for a rifle if there is unburned powder the radar beam can be reflected back giving you an error.

I found out that if I had a bad reading in the string if I deleted that shot from the string the statistics were recalculated. I also had a magneto speed crono with me and the readings were within 10 fps of each other.

When I got home I looked at SD card. Each string is a separate file. I had shot 16 strings. Each one needs to be opened separately which is kind of a pain. I copied each one to a separate page in a work book so that I could jus around easier.

There is a lot of data to look at. I might add that when you open the data from the magneto speed there is one file with all of the series with shot and velocities, Not as much data as there LabRadar, but sufficient to what I need.

I really like the LabRadar and glad I waited to get it. My PACT will probably not be used again!

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . I may try a couple of .44 rifles. This radar is really the only easy way to chrono a double rifle.. . .

First of all, cool rifle. Had to laugh when I saw the photo . . . imagined mounting two MagnetoSpeeds with long, overlapping velcro straps lol.

Thought I'd pass on something I picked up today. A shooter at the range was having some obvious trouble getting chronograph data from his optical device. He was shooting hand loads out of a suppressed 270, and I was curious about how the LR would perform in that environment. So I "intruded", and wound up setting up the LR so he could actually get some data. And me too

First 3 shots were unsuppressed, no issues (MV ~2935). Then attached the suppressor and shot . . . the LR didn't hear it using the Sensitivity setting I had used to hear my 30-06 and not hear others' shots ("5"). Since no one else was shooting at the time, I just turned sensitivity to max ("1") and the LR heard all the following shots . . . which BTW were MV ~2945.

So from the day I learned a few things:

1) While setting up, I've learned to let the LR sit "armed" so it can hear others' shots. If it reacts, I dial the sensitivity down a notch. Rinse/repeat until the LR doesn't react. Makes good use of the time waiting for a cease fire to set up targets

2) I confirmed that supersonic suppressed shots do still make noise. But in some situations maybe not enough to trigger the LR for your shots but still ignore others.

I wouldn't dignify this report by calling it a Test, but it is something to watch out for if one is planning to run suppressed.

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . I got some crazy readings such as 303 or 306 for velocity. I was shooting a 9mm and was expecting 1200 fps. Most were registering correctly. I called LabRadar . . . One of the reasons for the error is that at 50yds there as a 8" steel plate and he thought that the signal was bouncing off this. I relocated and it seemed to work most of the time. The line up is important. . . .

I also had a magneto speed crono with me and the readings were within 10 fps of each other. . . .

. . .I might add that when you open the data from the magneto speed there is one file with all of the series with shot and velocities, Not as much data as there LabRadar, but sufficient to what I need.

I really like the LabRadar and glad I waited to get it. My PACT will probably not be used again!

Very useful info . . . thanks much!

Did the LR Tech give you (or did you find) any tips on how to avoid something like that steel target? Like a specific way to line it up or not line it up? I've used the LR at a 25yd 5-bay indoor range with no issues noticed, but there was little possibility of a reflection off the walls or backstop.

I keep wanting to bring my MS to the range to crosscheck the LR. But I so much enjoy shooting for precision and gathering MV data at the same time that I just don't want to deal with the POI issues. Maybe I can convince myself I have good SD data now

It might be useful to report the "single file" concept/comparison back to LabRadar. LR data is cumbersome, but maybe made hardware requirements lighter, programming easier, whatever. Or maybe they just didn't think of it.

And finally . . . my CED M2 and MS are probably doomed to the same fate as your Pact

 

[Nemo288]

First of all, cool rifle. Had to laugh when I saw the photo . . . imagined mounting two MagnetoSpeeds with long, overlapping velcro straps lol.

I actually did mount the magnetospeed on the double.
I used a piece of power cord to fill the space between the barrels.
When the tech saw my pix he laughed and told me no way it would work.
It wasn't very stable anyway.

 

[Nemo288]

LabRadar has excellent customer service

When I went to mount the LabRadar on it's base, the threads did not match exactly
and I ended up rethreading the aluminum screw of the base mount a little.
The hole in the LabRadar was too small.
I then found out the tripod shoe for my Manfrotto tripod would not even start to thread into the LabRadar.
The "benches" at my indoor range are plastic and bounce a little especially when I weigh them down with some sandbags.
This last time I used a bag of shot to hold the LabRadar base steady.
But it all still bounces up and down if I am resting a gun on the bags.
So I want a steadier mount on a tripod removed from the bench tables.

Well I communicated all this to Mr. Mouser @ LabRadar and he sent me a 1/4-20 tap and a new base mount center assembly.
Free. Within a couple of days.
The tap did the job and I am now happy once again.
Can't wait to get to the range and have to haul even more stuff down those stairs.
Well done LabRadar!

I am still having trouble getting reliable triggering and not blasting the unit.
The 17" 445 Encore can produce quite some muzzle blast especially with the A1680 powder I was testing.
I-4227 burns up quicker. Also it's single based and 1680 is double based.

I think I need to move the muzzle a little further away from the radar next and play with the trigger levels more.
I did fool around with them some but ended up on 1 as I found that even with some shooters a couple lanes down from me,
those 9's didn't trigger the radar at all at that sensitive setting.
There are some pretty wide barrier walls between the lanes there.
Hopefully I haven't blown out one of the microphones already.

 

[Magload]

I am very happy with mine and have chrono'ed 22LR up to 45 ACP with the only problem being my AR15 in 223 with a muzzle brake. Due to the rest I was using I was having a hard time getting the unit lined up right to get it to trigger. I changed to a front bag rest to lower the rifle and get it closer to the side of the Labradar and started getting readings.

I contacted Mr. Mouser about the muzzle blast from a brake or comp as the manual mentions putting something between the the muzzle and the Labradar to protect it. He said that unless I was shooting a 308 or larger there was no worry. I was a little worried about my 357 mag revolver as I am using the less then 6 inch setting but had no problems.

I was impressed with the stored file that shows the FPS every .002 of a second down range. Not very useful info but impressive.

 

[Nemo288]

I am very happy with mine and have chrono'ed 22LR up to 45 ACP with the only problem being my AR15 in 223 with a muzzle brake. Due to the rest I was using I was having a hard time getting the unit lined up right to get it to trigger. I changed to a front bag rest to lower the rifle and get it closer to the side of the Labradar and started getting readings.

I contacted Mr. Mouser about the muzzle blast from a brake or comp as the manual mentions putting something between the the muzzle and the Labradar to protect it. He said that unless I was shooting a 308 or larger there was no worry. I was a little worried about my 357 mag revolver as I am using the less then 6 inch setting but had no problems.

I was impressed with the stored file that shows the FPS every .002 of a second down range. Not very useful info but impressive.

Yeah the data that shows up for the 5 preselected distances is quite informative too.
Some of the big WFNGC's I shoot that are almost wadcutters lose 100fps in 60 FEET (not yards)!
Talk about a rainbow.
Haven't calculated the BC's yet but they are going to low low low.
Appropriate for the "express" rifles I love.

 

[ROK]

Any tips for aiming the unit? I ordered one last night from Midway, and they still had ~160 LabRadar in stock! Front page at Midway offers a $30 coupon too.

 

[Magload]

Yes their site in the FAQ says to lay a straight piece of tubing in the V and sight through it. I found a small laser that would lay in the V also. I found that putting some Velcro on top of the unit then a strip over the tubing or laser better held it in position while adjusting the unit.

 

[Twoboxer]

Hadn't thought of the "tube sight" . . . thanks! Small tube section . . . some Duck tape . . . maybe even install paperclip crosshairs

More seriously, I haven't had much trouble but I do take time to line it up. And the worse my eyes get, the longer it takes. This will help.

 

[ROK]

Yes their site in the FAQ says to lay a straight piece of tubing in the V and sight through it. I found a small laser that would lay in the V also. I found that putting some Velcro on top of the unit then a strip over the tubing or laser better held it in position while adjusting the unit.

Thank you.
I'll start 'shopping' the local fast food places for different straw and stirrers. A dab of silicone will hold it...

I stopped in Best Buy yesterday and bought 2 of their house-brand Insignia usb battery packs. Clearance priced at~ 7.00 w/ cable. And the smallest SanDisk SDHC in stock was 16GB.

16GB will store my shot strings, children's, grand children's and their kids. Generations of data. Possibly centuries.
I just hope the LabRadar will recognize a card that size.

 

[Twoboxer]

. . .And the smallest SanDisk SDHC in stock was 16GB. . . . I just hope the LabRadar will recognize a card that size.

Yup, it will