Lack of interest in 40 SW yet 10MM is getting popular??

[Faulkner]

The only time a .40 S&W is wanting is when you compare it to something it was not designed to be compared to.

Kind of like the M1 carbine was designed to give support troops something easier to shoot in combat conditions than a M1911 or Thompson submachine gun. It exceeded those design parameters. It was not designed to compete with or replace the M1 Garand on the battlefield and when compared to the Garand it falls short. No surprise there.

The .40 S&W was designed in a time when 9mm bullet development was not nearly as advanced as it is now. In the Miami shootout, the 9mm came up wanting. The thought process on the .40 S&W was that it would give about 85 to 90% of the performance of a full size .45 ACP handgun and do it in a 9mm sized frame. Something the 9mm could not do at the time, but times and bullet technology has changed.

Also, I shoot .40 S&W and 9mm in my G23 and G19 side by side almost weekly. It is unfounded that the .40 S&W has 30 or 40% more recoil than 9mm. Actually, I find the difference insignificant.

 

[wood714]

Let me say first, I'm not a reloader. I have been told that there's no such thing as +P .40. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

You're wrong.

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[Capt29]

I know this is a 40 vs 10MM thread. However I have noted frequent references to the "Miami shootout". I attended the FBI Academy shortly after that event as a Chicago Police Captain. My focus was the HRT and SWAT operations. As one might imagine the Miami event was much discussed and evaluated.
My .02 worth:
It was not lack of local participation that impacted the event so much as the lack of any FBI doctrine, or a failure of what there was in conducting a felony car stop. The fight was initiated with such a stop. One of the initial problems was that agents took guns out of holsters and put them on the car seats beside them so as to be readily to hand. The car stop was initiated with a kinetic stop, i.e.; a more or less controlled collision between the FBI and the suspect vehicles. This involved the suspect vehicle and two FBI vehicles. During the crashes the FBI weapons were dislodged from the car seats and were thrown around the vehicle(s). That meant that the first agents to engage the suspects were using back up weapons. One suspect had an fully auto Mini 14, absolutely deadly at handgun ranges. Further he had trained with that weapon using the military method of using short controlled bursts, again absolutely deadly at the range involved. That suspect sustained an "nonsurvivable wound" from the get go from an FBI 9MM round. However it was a neck wound and not a "stopping" shot. Ben Grogan was an absolutely superior marksman (member of the FBI local SWAT). However his glasses had been dislodged in the vehicle impacts. Thus Dove and Grogan were under a severe disadvantage from the very start of the shooting.
It is prominently stated that the cause of the FBI losses were the result of the 9MM failure. That is simply not true. The proximate cause was the initiation of the felony car stop in an ineffective manner, the agents placing their weapons on the car seats, and loss of eyeglasses by the best shooter the FBI had on the scene.
These things probably would not have happened if the situation had been initiated by local cops. Note the "probably". Most street cops do not draw weapons till they are out of the vehicle, or the vehicle is stopped and they intend to emerge ready to shoot. This is basic training because we know that shooting from a moving vehicle is almost never effective, hence the manner of handling weapons in a vehicle.
This is not a shot at the FBI, they were simply not used to doing kinetic actions with a vehicle. Most rookie state troopers could have performed the kinetic stop easily, they are trained that way. Most other local cops could have done the same. They spend a lot of time using vehicles for other than transportation. Perhaps FBI agents of the 1930s would have fared better, they were crashing into bad guys almost every day.
I would like to point out that this particuar gunfight was terminated by a badly wounded FBI agent using a 3" S&W M13 firing .38 special +p SWCHP, and a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot. It was not a failure of a 9MM round, it was a failure induced by circumstances that prevailed through a chain of events that were not necessarily predictable, the removal of any one of which would have altered the outcome dramatically-kind of like most major historical events-the Titanic comes to mind.
And the FBI uses what round today? Essentailly the same round that was called a failure after the shootout. Maybe if all the agents had been using the .38 special +P SWCHP things might have been different?

 

[wood714]

Cor-bon shows their 165gr 10mm as follows:

• Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
• Muzzle Energy: 573 ft-lbs

Cor-bon shows their 165gr .40 as follows:

• Velocity: 1150 fps
• Energy: 485 ft-lbs

That's a pretty good leap in energy there, IMO. I'll take that when car windshields & other hard objects come into play.

The only one who can save MY life is ME. I'll take the 10mm, Alex......................

Buffalo Bore 40+P

Velocity: 1,300 fps
Energy: 582 ft. lbs.

I'd take it, Alex....................

 

[Okie Red]

View attachment 786534

If you really want to have some fun...and you have a Lot of $ to spare...buy an HK MP-10...for those of us who were fortunate to be issued an MP-5 in the day...I can attest to the fun factor of the MP-10...if a 3-round burst of 10mm doesn't stop the threat.. it really sucks to be you that day...just sayin

I concur, with the MP5 in 10mm and three shot burst you never felt under gunned or I didn't.

 

[Law-dog]

Loves me some 10mm, hate the .40.

Let me say first, I'm not a reloader. I have been told that there's no such thing as +P .40. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

But I've also been told that there's room in the 10mm loadings to safely run up the velocity a decent bit.

When I shoot steel plates with one of my 10mm guns, the plates react a LOT more violently over both .45acp & 9mm. In short, they're just wicked, wicked fun to shoot reactive targets with.

Let's look at facts. The 40 SW is a 4 inch design spec gun, like the 9mm. The 10mm is a 5 inch gun spec, per SAAMI. This is important because power levels have changed.

When the 10mm was dumped and the 40 SW put in place, the ammo centered around 180 grain bullets at 950 fps, pretty mild in most books and that was the new power level. Civilian ammo would run it up to maybe 1,050 fps in the 4 inch barrel.

Then the 9mm started getting ramped up in power with better bullet designs. When put to the FBI protocol tests, there was not a lot of difference. So, now you could have a 40 SW with 12-13 rounds or a 9mm with 15-17 rounds. Lots of people went for the cheaper ammo 9mm and the higher capacity, it was in many minds a no brainer.

And most major law enforcement went to the Glock 19 as the duty and carry gun of preference. I read they sold 2 million of them and growing the the close multiply that amount. In gang slang, the no longer say, I got my "piece, or my heater" they now say, I got my Glock.

Now, the 9mm is not a hand cannon, along come the 10mm and people shooting bears and one guy keeps showing his video of a cape buffalo, so the 10mm is now a whitetail gun and a bear defense gun, naturally.

So, your 10mm, with it's 5 inch barrel will throw a self defense bullet to over 1,500 fps from the major companies, like Underwood, Corbon and Buffalo Bore.

But things happened since the 40 SW was introduced and that is new powders. Lil Gun and CFE particularly. I own both the 40 and 10mm and the 400 Corbon. There is no better powder now for those three than CFE and Lil Gun.

Now CFE will move a 135 grain bullet from the 4 inch 40 at 1,392 fps, and with the Lil Gun I think 1,413 fps. That is 599 fpe from a standard 4 inch barrel in a small gun like the Glock 23.

You commented that there was no such thing as a Plus P in 40 SW. True. That is just a word. Go to the Nosler manual of 2022, or the online Hodgen reloading data, they will confirm these numbers. Now look at the 10mm, those numbers will be from the longer 5 inch barrel, just they way they do it under the SAMMI specs. And it is accurate date.

I can now load my 40 SW just as hot as I can the 400 Corbon and nearly as fast as the 10mm with the 135 grain bullets, and I can carry a gun that is one inch shorter.

Just physics based on the newer powders. Once I discovered this I bought a new 40 and a 40 barrel for my 10mm 1911. Bullets screaming along at 1,400 fps are up there with the very best self defense loads in history. Makes no difference if the gun is a 357, 40, 357 Sig or 10mm, the 125-135 grain bullets at those speeds are devastating.

And suddenly the 40 SW ammo is cheap and not many are buying the guns. Fine by me. I enjoy the savings.

Check out those loading manuals, do not take my word for it, these powders in the last 20 or so years have changed the ability of the 40. That only applies to the bullets in the 125-155 weight range, the 10 is better for heavy bullets ,

Check it out.





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[SGT ROCK 11B]

Perhaps FBI agents of the 1930s would have fared better, they were crashing into bad guys almost every day.

Not really; The FBI was involved in a deadly shootout with "Baby Face" Nelson in Barrington, Illinois on November 27, 1934. The shootout resulted in the death of Baby Face Nelson and two FBI agents, Samuel Cowley and Herman Hollis. This event, sometimes called the "Battle of Barrington", concluded a period of intense pursuit of the notorious gangster and marked a significant moment in FBI history.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

First choice calibers for Law Enforcement is 357 Magnum or 45 ACP.

38 Special and 9mm will do too with regular training.

So from the LEO POV we had all our needs met in 1935.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

The 10mm popularity is stoked by "BEAR ATTACKS" on hunters. It is common place for hunters from the EAST to carry a 10mm as a PDW in bear country of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and New Mexico. The population of Alaska which has a large population of LARGE BEARS have an affinity for large caliber handguns. 20 or so years ago my family vacationed in the vicinity of Glacier National Park, the locals were focused on the loss of a horseback tour guide.

Here in the SC low country we have no big bears and no little bears.......Yet I own-shoot load for 3 ea 10mm's.......2 semi autos and one revolver.