N4KVE
Member
And many of them are killing an hour while their wives are at the beauty salon next door. GARY
LGS won't show take down on a gun?
- Thread starter Trons
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ABSOLUTLY NOT!!
It doesn't make it "used" as in fired or transferred, but any scratches / damage could easily make it less appealing to a real customer. I always ask for one that is new in the box, unopened, if one is available.
Shooting Padre
US Veteran
The Ruger can be a pain in the tail. However, most every gun dealer I've done business with has shown me how to take down a gun when asked. I even had to put one back together once as the dealer couldn't seem to get it. I understand the reluctance to scratch or otherwise compromise a new gun. I guess it's just how helpful they want to be. When I looked at a new pickup the dealer wouldn't take it apart either. I didn't buy it.
Biggfoot44
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I will gladly fondle a reasonable number of firearms per visit. On those models with an external hammer will test the trigger pull without actually dropping the hammer. But expecting a field strip on a new pistol ( not yet purchased ) is above and beyond.
No it doesn't make a new pistol into a used pistol , but I understand why a dealer would care to do so routinely.
( Once I've committed ) if a dealer has multiple examples of somthing I'll want to check each one for closest b/c gap , and smoothest trigger. Once or twice I even pulled out a range rod once I was serious.
For that matter I prefer to buy used , even if it is a model still in production. I have confidence in my evaluation skills , and I'm happy for someone else to have broken it in on their dime. Worst case scenario was having to replace a recoil spring that proved too weak. And that was balanced out by a brand new special order PC revolver that had a mainspring lighter than I cared for.
No it doesn't make a new pistol into a used pistol , but I understand why a dealer would care to do so routinely.
( Once I've committed ) if a dealer has multiple examples of somthing I'll want to check each one for closest b/c gap , and smoothest trigger. Once or twice I even pulled out a range rod once I was serious.
For that matter I prefer to buy used , even if it is a model still in production. I have confidence in my evaluation skills , and I'm happy for someone else to have broken it in on their dime. Worst case scenario was having to replace a recoil spring that proved too weak. And that was balanced out by a brand new special order PC revolver that had a mainspring lighter than I cared for.
Rastoff
US Veteran
You probably won't like this answer, but here goes...it may.
If the gun can be field stripped without leaving a mark, the gun is still new. However, put a scratch on it and the gun moves to the used category. That's how I see it.
Ranger17
Member
well I for one have had my opinions on this changed from following this thread; i now get it that being able to take down a new gun in most instances doesnt make sense and isnt likely to be an option. But as still a newb learning the ropes, guess if i'm not familiar with a new gun model I want to purchase and wont have friends/family around to lend a hand if needed, i'd just try to find a used model (perhaps at same lgs) that can be gone thru (or one of their staff may already cc what i'm looking at). After all, i may not want to buy something i'm not comfortable with on how its internals work. As I gain more experience, that should become less likely over time.
uncleted327
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As I already stated Buds and Grabagun offer free or almost free shipping. And I've never paid more for shipping and FFL fees combined than what tax alone at the LGS costs me.
As far as new means new, two new guns ive bought, a Kahr and a Springfield I would not have purchased if I had taken the slides off first. The Kahr had a damaged takedown pin that I had to replace before I could safely shoot it and the Springfield had a damaged/defective RSA. Both cost me time and money up front before I could even shoot them. So new doesn't mean anything.
The irony is that the guns you are gonna run into that require unusually complicated, risky or nonstandard takedown (which, presumably, you might want or need to understand before making a decision to buy) are exactly the same guns that your everyday part-time gun shop salesperson would be most hesitant to want to mess with, or allow you to mess with, whether brand new or used... especially if "used" means something that another shop customer left there on "consignment."
But I will say this: If I honestly thought I needed a takedown demo before making a buying decision... and there were no videos available on-line... I would go out of my way to find a shop that would be willing to do that for me, one way or another. The situation has never come up yet in the nearly 40 years that I've been collecting and shooting, but I suppose you never know.
At the local shops I've been to, there is no problem taking as much time as needed. I've waited over an hour for my turn, but then can take my time. The shops want the customer to be satisfied with the experience, regardless if you purchase that day. Having said that, you can't please everyone.
They may not allow take down and dry fires (OK, the shops near me typically allow racking and dry fires), but they will also bring out multiple guns to allow you to compare (assuming they have it). That includes long guns.
I do most of my browsing online. I read some reviews, watch a few vids, then narrow down what I want. Then the hunt begins to find someone nearby with stock. While shipping may be free, we pay tax and transfer fees here in CA. Extra fees apply if it's not on the Roster of Guns Not Unsafe (until 1/1/2015). So by they time you get done, that great deal you found on GunBroker vanishes. Ten round mag limits can also complicate online deals here.
In the end, market forces reign supreme. Don't like the policy, shop somewhere else. Just realize while you may think "screw them, I'll take my business elsewhere", they may think, "thank God that jerk left".
JAREDSHS
Member
My local gun store is a small shop, we are a rather remote county (read that as small town-small time). The owner is a considerate, concienteous person. He is fair and honest in his business transaction. When he takes a weapon out to let you handle it-he always opens the cylinder on a revolver and retracts the slide on a semi auto pistol. If it is a long gun, it is opened up in a similar fashion, before it is handed to you. If the weapon can be damaged by dry firing,it will have a tag on it saying do not to do that. I can buy a new gun in this store with complete confidence that it has never been fooled with since it left the factory. I would never ---out of respect to the shop and to the next customer who might be considering a particular weapon ask for the piece to be field stripped.
There may be some confusion here. I'm not looking for an answer I like. I'm relatively new to guns, making my first purchase just shy of 6 months ago.
It may have been unreasonable for me to ask. I wasn't concerned, so much, with what was actually in side, I just happened to be curious as to the take down and was passing on my way to meet my wife for lunch and thought I'd ask.
hangnoose
Member
NO!
Gotta side with the LGS here. I realize every situation is different, but I can think of many more reasons not to, than to do the field strip: not ALL guns are easily stripped (tools required?), not every clerk knows how to strip every gun in the shop, time spent doing it in a busier store, the risk of a scratch or dropped/lost spring or part, is the buyer a lookie Lou that won't know what he is looking at & then buy online or a multiple repeat buying customer?, What's next? RU gonna ask me to take the side plate off a revolver? The Sig 226 I bought OTC the clerk stripped it w/o being asked. It kinda all depends, but bottom line it's up to the LGS, it may be policy, & certainly not worth getting upset over. After having tables at gun shows & every other person wants you to remove the zip tie, that is there to specifically stop people from dry firing, (which may indeed harm certain guns) I can certainly understand a LGS NOT wanting to do it.
Gotta side with the LGS here. I realize every situation is different, but I can think of many more reasons not to, than to do the field strip: not ALL guns are easily stripped (tools required?), not every clerk knows how to strip every gun in the shop, time spent doing it in a busier store, the risk of a scratch or dropped/lost spring or part, is the buyer a lookie Lou that won't know what he is looking at & then buy online or a multiple repeat buying customer?, What's next? RU gonna ask me to take the side plate off a revolver? The Sig 226 I bought OTC the clerk stripped it w/o being asked. It kinda all depends, but bottom line it's up to the LGS, it may be policy, & certainly not worth getting upset over. After having tables at gun shows & every other person wants you to remove the zip tie, that is there to specifically stop people from dry firing, (which may indeed harm certain guns) I can certainly understand a LGS NOT wanting to do it.
eyegots2no
Member
So...
When you look at the insides, what is that gonna do for you??? What are you gonna learn? What do you know about the insides? Come on!!
Are you gonna say---"Look...it has defects...."! No---you would not be able to tell.
Or, "Hey---those engineers are stupid!" No, you would not know the difference
Do you ask for a the head to be taken off a car engine B4 purchase? They would laugh at you if you did and ask you to see a shrink.
What really can YOU learn or do from looking at the insides?
If you want it---and you just fell that field stripping is BEYOND your ability to read and understand disassembly instructions,
then buy it!
Then ask IF they have TIME to guide you in disassembly----IF they have time---and IF you are NOT gonna ask for a refund if it gets scratched.
Ever see a person open a package of any merchandise in any store because they want to inspect it----then they sit the now unpackaged item down and grab an unopened item to take to the cash register for purchase?
Do you know how hard it is to ever sell the "opened" merchandise?
This is not a customer service issue------this is over-analness and unreasonableness of a "potential" customer, and the reality of running a business.
BTW, I once opened k-22 at a gun show (because I was in long taught
safety ---check and see if it loaded mode) then closed it turning the cylinder.
I got quite a chewing. I started to think he was a real jerk----then I realized I was the jerk.
Luckily, along with the chewing---the dealer saw fit to educate me on how to close the cylinder in such a way not allowing the locking lug to mar the cylinder (as it did not have hardly any until THIS idiot strolled up).
We all learn something everyday.
I still cringe at what i did---and feel worse that he earned nothing from me that day (I did not have the money to purchase the gun in the first place), and he has a once pristine K-22 now with a ring on the cylinder.
I, on the other hand, learned a valuable lesson.
It was a skewed exchange.
People in business get the short end way too often.
When you look at the insides, what is that gonna do for you??? What are you gonna learn? What do you know about the insides? Come on!!
Are you gonna say---"Look...it has defects...."! No---you would not be able to tell.
Or, "Hey---those engineers are stupid!" No, you would not know the difference
Do you ask for a the head to be taken off a car engine B4 purchase? They would laugh at you if you did and ask you to see a shrink.
What really can YOU learn or do from looking at the insides?
If you want it---and you just fell that field stripping is BEYOND your ability to read and understand disassembly instructions,
then buy it!
Then ask IF they have TIME to guide you in disassembly----IF they have time---and IF you are NOT gonna ask for a refund if it gets scratched.
Ever see a person open a package of any merchandise in any store because they want to inspect it----then they sit the now unpackaged item down and grab an unopened item to take to the cash register for purchase?
Do you know how hard it is to ever sell the "opened" merchandise?
This is not a customer service issue------this is over-analness and unreasonableness of a "potential" customer, and the reality of running a business.
BTW, I once opened k-22 at a gun show (because I was in long taught
safety ---check and see if it loaded mode) then closed it turning the cylinder.
I got quite a chewing. I started to think he was a real jerk----then I realized I was the jerk.
Luckily, along with the chewing---the dealer saw fit to educate me on how to close the cylinder in such a way not allowing the locking lug to mar the cylinder (as it did not have hardly any until THIS idiot strolled up).
We all learn something everyday.
I still cringe at what i did---and feel worse that he earned nothing from me that day (I did not have the money to purchase the gun in the first place), and he has a once pristine K-22 now with a ring on the cylinder.
I, on the other hand, learned a valuable lesson.
It was a skewed exchange.
People in business get the short end way too often.
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Well, Eyegots, interesting perspective. I may have mentioned that I'm kind of new to this, which is why I started this thread, to find out if I was being unreasonable or if the LGS was. I will say that it does sound like it may have been an unreasonable request, however, everybody that supports that also says things like "It might scratch it" Or "It might be a tough take down." or even "This is not a customer service issue------this is over-analness and unreasonableness of a "potential" customer, and the reality of running a business." is not taking into account that I was specifically asking about an M&P, that he had already taken out of the case and racked the slide. To me, that puts about as much wear and tear on the gun as field stripping it.
I didn't want to look at the insides, I wanted to see if it was like my M&P .22 or my Shield.
I will also say that I used to own my own business and was an owner/operator and the single employee most of the time. I charged a bit more then my competition, but routinely had customers tell me that they were recommended by the competition. I built the company up on reputation and providing excellent customer service. I rarely advertised and relied on word of mouth.
Now, I also noticed, Eyegots, that you still, in your very informative post, whether you think field stripping a fire arm, specifically a M&P .22c would make it be considered used, to a future purchaser.
I didn't want to look at the insides, I wanted to see if it was like my M&P .22 or my Shield.
I will also say that I used to own my own business and was an owner/operator and the single employee most of the time. I charged a bit more then my competition, but routinely had customers tell me that they were recommended by the competition. I built the company up on reputation and providing excellent customer service. I rarely advertised and relied on word of mouth.
Now, I also noticed, Eyegots, that you still, in your very informative post, whether you think field stripping a fire arm, specifically a M&P .22c would make it be considered used, to a future purchaser.
highaltitude
Member
I'm with the LGS on this one. Honestly, I wouldn't want to be buying a gun that has been stripped and dry fired hundreds of times from people that should be doing a little research on their own. My guess is the 90% of the people wanting to break down the gun have no interest in buying it, anyway. Once a person decides to buy it, absolutely they should go through the entire process if the customer requests it. Seriously, with the internet, youtube and the millions of videos out there on every type of gun imaginable.. it's not difficult. Finally, I would venture to say that many of the videos are more informative and accurate (Hickok45 comes to mind) than what you will find at the LGS.
eyegots2no
Member
I feel like the original question of whether it now becomes a used gun has been answered---just maybe not directly.
No, it does NOT make it a used gun------per se.
But, as suggested----"excessive field stripping", "scratches", etc.--- it just may not be as attractive to a potential buyer and appear used, and so then---for practical purposes, i.e. selling ---it is.
Perhaps the LGS owner could have been less curt and had more of a helpful attitude and explanation for his position (just like I could have chosen different words).
"reputation and providing excellent customer service" is top drawer in my few and those practicing that do much more for themselves and our world.
I sincerely hope I did not come across abrasive or insulting---please do not read that into it.
This is a great forum!!!!
No, it does NOT make it a used gun------per se.
But, as suggested----"excessive field stripping", "scratches", etc.--- it just may not be as attractive to a potential buyer and appear used, and so then---for practical purposes, i.e. selling ---it is.
Perhaps the LGS owner could have been less curt and had more of a helpful attitude and explanation for his position (just like I could have chosen different words).
"reputation and providing excellent customer service" is top drawer in my few and those practicing that do much more for themselves and our world.
I sincerely hope I did not come across abrasive or insulting---please do not read that into it.
This is a great forum!!!!
Rastoff
US Veteran
What I was getting at by "you might not like it" is that the answer to your question is not clear cut. As you've seen in this thread there are many different views on what is reasonable handling. That's why the answer is, maybe.
What one sees as unreasonable another sees as normal behavior. This is the world we live in.
Not at all. It's never unreasonable to ask. The worst that can happen is they say no. If you never ask, the answer is a guaranteed no. Just asking is how we find out.
You were not a jerk and your action was reasonable. Opening the cylinder of a revolver to check its condition is only the right thing to do. If the vendor didn't want you to open the cylinder, he shouldn't have allowed you to handle the gun at all.eyegots2no said:
Checking the condition of a gun by opening the cylinder or operating the slide is normal. In no way will it reduce the value of the gun.
coltle6920
Member
I don't blame the owner or not wanting to break down the firearm if you were just browsing.Your question could just as easily been answered by looking at videos on YouTube.
I do all of my research ahead of time so that when I go to my LGS it's with full intention to buy.I own a couple of guns that I was unfamiliar with when I bought them.They were used so there wasn't any booklet to reference.The guys at the store were more than happy to show me how to field strip the firearm while my paperwork was being processed.
I do all of my research ahead of time so that when I go to my LGS it's with full intention to buy.I own a couple of guns that I was unfamiliar with when I bought them.They were used so there wasn't any booklet to reference.The guys at the store were more than happy to show me how to field strip the firearm while my paperwork was being processed.
OldCat
Member
This thread is very interesting. Until now I never even thought of taking down a NIB gun in the store before buying it. That was true since 1970 until now. Recently I bought a couple new guns and each time the LGS took it down for me to show me how easy it is compared to the old 1911 days. Not that it swayed me in my buying decision but was nice to see to compare one plastic gun to another.
Ultimately I ended up buying a Glock 19 and a S&W M&P Shield both in 9mm. Now I'm eye-balling the new M&P 22 Compact which takes down completely different than the Shield.
If I was buying a used gun I would insist on taking it down in the shop before considering buying it.
Ultimately I ended up buying a Glock 19 and a S&W M&P Shield both in 9mm. Now I'm eye-balling the new M&P 22 Compact which takes down completely different than the Shield.
If I was buying a used gun I would insist on taking it down in the shop before considering buying it.
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mark32812
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The man in the original post state that he already had a full size M&P-22 and wanted to know how the new M&P 22c breaks down. Would they be just about the same? Many LGS will show you how to break a firearm down after you buy it.
He wasn't going to buy it anyways.... good for the vendor.. but I would add, the vendor shouldn't be a jerk about it. I will also add, I don't believe in condemning someone who didn't have a chance to share his side of the story... it's why I tend to support S&W CS
sherrill15
Member
I wouldn't take the time to take it down either but it sounds like someone who was either lazy or didn't know how to do it and was too afraid to admit it. Taking a gun down, doesn't make it used. That's the stupidest excuse I've ever heard. If you don't want to do it, simply tell them so.
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sherrill15
Member
I can understand the closing the cylinder situation but it's up to the store employee to tell you this before doing so. Some tell me not to turn it, some don't, but I know how to close it without turning it too. Just be careful. Not everyone knows everything, warn them ahead of time.
And why do you say that?
This was the second time he went in there that day, this time with the sole intent of buying the gun..
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I went to my LGS yesterday, specifically looking for a M&P .22c, because I'm thinking of trading my FS M&P .22 in for one, because it's closer in size to my shield. They had it, I liked it, but wasn't ready to buy that specific day, doing a little field research. I left, talked to the wife, decided I would go for it after we met for lunch. On the way to meet her, I wanted to stop by and see what the take down was on it.
There has been some great info here... but to take a side when you only hear one side.. don't cut it for me.. I've read enough here to not be comfy condemning anyone.
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