Lion Air 737 MAX crash report

Register to hide this ad
b5827594a55bc4e18db21474a0c9953e.jpg

About 75-100 of them parked at a Boeing facility in SATX.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Pretty much as I expected. While Boeing had some responsibility, the main responsibility seems to lie with Lion Air. From what I've seen and read foreign carriers have far lower standards for training certification maintenance and compliance with regulations.

I think there are some people that wanted Boeing to be the primary problem because there's much more money in their pockets than in most of the others.
 
There will always be plane crashes due to human error. Usually there will be a chain of irregular events or circumstances, sometimes the humans just malfunction and crash a perfectly good aircraft.

In the attempt to provide protection from one threat, another can be inadvertently created. A good example is Germanwings 9525. To prevent cockpit intrusions, the cockpit doors have been secured after 9/11, but that allowed the suicidal co-pilot to lock the captain out and crash the plane into the Alps. Unintended consequences.

The MCAS is another case in point. The more powerful engines on the 737 MAX, which are really too big for this airframe, had to be mounted farther forward on the wing, creating a notable tendency for the aircraft to pitch up when full thrust is applied. Since that gets the wings closer to the critical angle of attack, the MCAS was invented to automatically counter-trim nose-down. Great, so it won’t stall. But it creates the opposite danger if a single sensor is faulty, and even if the pilots turn it off, it reactivates itself if the false readings continue.

And that’s where most pilots’ criticism lies with Boeing. Automation is fine, and generally computers are much better and more reliable than people. Commercial aviation has an insanely good safety record compared to all other modes of transportation including walking down the stairs in your house. But this is the first time that Boeing put a system into a plane that could not be switched off and control taken over by the pilot, but which continued to fight until it overwhelmed pilots which were maybe less than top-shelf.
 
considering that the 737 MAX had been flying for at least a year some of the circumstances for the crashes had to exist and they didn't crash. I would say that difference was in pilot experience and training. I don't care how new an airplane is but I wouldn't fly on a third world maintained airplane and their flight crew on a bet. Boeing screwed up but superior training and an experienced flight crew saved the day.

flight simulators are nice but they don't make up for hours in the cockpit. there is a big difference when you paying customers behind you. When I was flying in the 1970's the pilots had a lot of hours , gray hair and old. they maybe managed to scare themselves a couple of times but that is pilots I want.
 
Last edited:
I'm confident that Boeing will correct the problems and continue to be a leader in the industry. Hard to stay perfect when you are that large....but great companies correct the failures and move on....sad that lives were the cost of the failures...making this issue more important than ever. I do own their stock and will continue to own them, thinking they will recover even stronger...

spricks
 
I'm confident that Boeing will correct the problems and continue to be a leader in the industry. Hard to stay perfect when you are that large....but great companies correct the failures and move on....sad that lives were the cost of the failures...making this issue more important than ever. I do own their stock and will continue to own them, thinking they will recover even stronger...

spricks

I used to think that about Pan Am. The Lockerbie terrorist bombing 86’d the biggest name in American commercial aviation. Arthur C. Clarke used the brand in 2001:A Space Odyssey because he thought it would be around forever.
 
I used to think that about Pan Am. The Lockerbie terrorist bombing 86’d the biggest name in American commercial aviation. Arthur C. Clarke used the brand in 2001:A Space Odyssey because he thought it would be around forever.

There was a host of problems contributing to PanAm going belly-up, including a string of terrible financial decisions on the part of PanAm management and its inability to compete with other international airlines profitably due to airline deregulation. Even without the Lockerbie incident, PanAm's fate was inevitable.
 
Last edited:
Hardly. The 737 in all it's variations is the most successful commercial jet in history. Over 10,000 have been produced since 1967.

It has a very good safety record, even if you include the two MAX crashes.

Most aircraft crashes involve a sequence of events, just as in these two. Pilot error is most often a huge factor, again as in these two.

As I said, foreign carriers often have lower standards of pilot training, maintenance, and compliance with regulations.

Oh, Boeing's latest earnings report beat the analyst expectations.

May as well just change the name to Boeing Dirt Dart.
 
I'll only add that there apparently was a way to turn off the MCAS, but that wasn't adequately communicated by Boeing.

I seem to remember that a couple of US carriers had similar situations with their MAXs, but the pilots were able to counter that and turn off the system.

The Lion Air plane had a faulty sensor, just as you point out. That wasn't Boeing's fault, it was the fault of the company that supplied the replacement sensor in the plane.

There will always be plane crashes due to human error. Usually there will be a chain of irregular events or circumstances, sometimes the humans just malfunction and crash a perfectly good aircraft.

In the attempt to provide protection from one threat, another can be inadvertently created. A good example is Germanwings 9525. To prevent cockpit intrusions, the cockpit doors have been secured after 9/11, but that allowed the suicidal co-pilot to lock the captain out and crash the plane into the Alps. Unintended consequences.

The MCAS is another case in point. The more powerful engines on the 737 MAX, which are really too big for this airframe, had to be mounted farther forward on the wing, creating a notable tendency for the aircraft to pitch up when full thrust is applied. Since that gets the wings closer to the critical angle of attack, the MCAS was invented to automatically counter-trim nose-down. Great, so it won’t stall. But it creates the opposite danger if a single sensor is faulty, and even if the pilots turn it off, it reactivates itself if the false readings continue.

And that’s where most pilots’ criticism lies with Boeing. Automation is fine, and generally computers are much better and more reliable than people. Commercial aviation has an insanely good safety record compared to all other modes of transportation including walking down the stairs in your house. But this is the first time that Boeing put a system into a plane that could not be switched off and control taken over by the pilot, but which continued to fight until it overwhelmed pilots which were maybe less than top-shelf.
 
If anyone really wants the real info read some of the stuff about the max in aviation trade magazines not from bbc.

Boeing has some responsibility but when the system acts up ypi turn it off and leave it off (yes it was possible to do so and the did) you dont turn it back on again. Which they did.

If they had left it off and flown the aircraft they would be among the living still


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The Lion Air plane had a faulty sensor, just as you point out. That wasn't Boeing's fault, it was the fault of the company that supplied the replacement sensor in the plane.

"a faulty sensor", as in a *single* faulty sensor. And therein lies the problem. IMHO yes, it was Boeing's fault, to have so much riding on a single sensor.
 
If anyone really wants the real info read some of the stuff about the max in aviation trade magazines .....

.... but when the system acts up ypi turn it off and leave it off (yes it was possible to do so and the did) you dont turn it back on again. Which they did.

If they had left it off and flown the aircraft they would be among the living still
.....

Indeed, if you do read the commentary from the people who fly these, you realize it isn’t quite that easy.

Switching the TCAS off so that it stays off is not as straightforward as throwing a switch. The linked article below by Les Abend, who was a 30-year-or-so captain with American, but writes not too jargon-heavy, explains some of the issues.

What Happens Next For Boeing | Flying
 
Go to YouTube and watch The Flight Channel, many crashes are pilot error, language miscommunications, or unfamiliarity with instruments.
You don’t want to know what goes on in cockpits.
The last week or so I’ve been binging on videos.
 
Just my opinion, but the 737MAX incorporated enough changes to its design from the other 737 aircraft , that it really wasn't a 737. It should have been subjected to new certification processes, like all new aircraft undergo, but that would have been too expensive for Boeing, and would have delayed rollout by over a year. Money rules, and people died as a result. It still needs to be certified as a new design - center of gravity has changed, airflow has changed, engine dynamics have changed - even landing gears are different. It's a different aircraft with a old name. Hopefully, Boeing will loose their butt in this sham. When the users manual omits critical data that Boeing knew about, it's hard to blame the pilots for something they were unaware of.
 
From the link: “But at the heart of that chain was MCAS - a control system that the pilots didn't know about, and which was vulnerable to a single sensor failure”

I agree with Absalom and Vt Shooter on this. It seems to me that a critical system — one whose failure can result in the loss of life — on an aircraft should not have a single point of failure.
 
Boeing showed their corporate culture to be deeply flawed by their efforts to keep the training and manuals the same. They appear to have engaged in some pretty serious misconduct because of the economic incentives (they had a pretty big cost clause in their contract with one airline that cost them $1m/plane if the training had to change). I'd be curious to see what the standard sentencing range is for hundreds of counts of manslaughter.
 
Back
Top