Local gun shops concerned this could happen to them?
- Thread starter Frank121
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Arik
Member
gman51
Member
I bought a brand new in box G27 Glock for $400 and a new XDM 3.2 compact for $500 online. That was the beginning of the end of my LGS wanting to do transfers for me. He made it real plain without saying so that he didn't want my business anymore. After he shorted me a magazine on a gun transfer that was the last time I did business with him.
Anymore on new guns I compare online pricing with my LGS. More often than not my LGS gets the gun order not the online store. By the time I figure in freight and transfer fee my LGS price is often within pennies and often he has the gun in stock.
I just bought an LC9s Ruger at a LGS for $312 otd. I have yet to see an online gun for that low price.
Bottom line is compare pricing before hitting the submit for an online gun or plopping money on the counter at an LGS.
Anymore on new guns I compare online pricing with my LGS. More often than not my LGS gets the gun order not the online store. By the time I figure in freight and transfer fee my LGS price is often within pennies and often he has the gun in stock.
I just bought an LC9s Ruger at a LGS for $312 otd. I have yet to see an online gun for that low price.
Bottom line is compare pricing before hitting the submit for an online gun or plopping money on the counter at an LGS.
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DWalt
Member
Not far from me (less than a mile) is a "Dealer" whose entire business is doing firearms ransfers for those buying off the internet - $20. He occasionally might have a used gun in his display case for sale, and also will search for the best price for whatever gun a customer might want. But he has no inventory to speak of. He's been there for over ten years that I know of, and seems pretty busy all the time.
local dive shops have smilier problems with scuba equipment. Dealers want minimum purchase amounts and often impose minimum advertised prices, but then let on line dealers sell for pretty much anything they want.
This is aggravated by EU rules that allow dealers and wholesalers over there to sell at very low mark up to authorized and non-authorized on line dealers here in the US, enabling them to undercut brick and mortar dealers.
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Local gun shops have different, but similar problems.
For example some firearms companies have also required minimum initial and annual purchases amounts to retain a dealership.
In the past it was also easier to order a specific firearm. If a customer came in wanting something not in stock, you could order it from the whole sale and have it about a week. Now, you often have to submit your order around the same time as the Shot Show, and it will arrive whenever it is finally produced, forcing a local gun shop to predict what is going to be in demand and what it will be able to sell over the next year.
A few companies will also allocate in demand firearms to certain shops, but that is also based on sales numbers for less in demand fire arms, so in effect if they want a high demand firearm they have to agree to buy and sell a lot of not so in demand firearms.
Those policies all feed on-line sales, either directly to the customer via action sites, in order to move the stuff they've been forced to purchase, or indirectly by selling that inventory off to other shops where the demand exists - which jacks the price up on those items as the factory, the original dealer and the dealer actually selling it all end up making money (and paying shipping).
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It would be in the interests of local gun shops to put the brakes on on-line sales from large on line retailers, since those are the retailers that undercut their local business. But, there will always be a local FFL willing to make $20 off a transfer.
The fault really lies with the customers who are willing to save cash buying on line. Ironically, after paying the shipping and transfer fee, the actual savings are not all that great, particularly if the customer lives in a state that levels the playing field by charging sales tax on on-line sales.
What the customer fails to realize is that buying locally allows you tho fully inspect the firearm before you buy it, and way back in the day when local guns shops took their job seriously, they would also inspect all the firearms that came in closely for defects.
Some of it however is also the fault of LGS's today. For example, I recall Remington shipping a Model 7 that had a warped stock that pressed on the barrel. We called to send it back and Remington offered us a hefty discount to just keep it. We didn't want to sell factory seconds so we declined. However, I have no doubt that Model 7 ended up on the rack in a department store or big box gun store, and they probably got it at the same super low price it was offered to us.
That used to be the difference between buying at a LGS versus a department store. Unfortunately, the first time many LGS staff no longer careful inspect firearms that come in - as evidenced by how many I see with issues, as I insist on fully inspecting a new firearm before I purchase.
Worse is what happens if you have a defective firearm. Way too many LGS's are going to tell you to return it to the manufacturer on your own, instead of swapping it out for another than have in stock, or handling the return for you. With that LGS attitude, they are offering no real advantage over just buying on line.
This is aggravated by EU rules that allow dealers and wholesalers over there to sell at very low mark up to authorized and non-authorized on line dealers here in the US, enabling them to undercut brick and mortar dealers.
----
Local gun shops have different, but similar problems.
For example some firearms companies have also required minimum initial and annual purchases amounts to retain a dealership.
In the past it was also easier to order a specific firearm. If a customer came in wanting something not in stock, you could order it from the whole sale and have it about a week. Now, you often have to submit your order around the same time as the Shot Show, and it will arrive whenever it is finally produced, forcing a local gun shop to predict what is going to be in demand and what it will be able to sell over the next year.
A few companies will also allocate in demand firearms to certain shops, but that is also based on sales numbers for less in demand fire arms, so in effect if they want a high demand firearm they have to agree to buy and sell a lot of not so in demand firearms.
Those policies all feed on-line sales, either directly to the customer via action sites, in order to move the stuff they've been forced to purchase, or indirectly by selling that inventory off to other shops where the demand exists - which jacks the price up on those items as the factory, the original dealer and the dealer actually selling it all end up making money (and paying shipping).
----
It would be in the interests of local gun shops to put the brakes on on-line sales from large on line retailers, since those are the retailers that undercut their local business. But, there will always be a local FFL willing to make $20 off a transfer.
The fault really lies with the customers who are willing to save cash buying on line. Ironically, after paying the shipping and transfer fee, the actual savings are not all that great, particularly if the customer lives in a state that levels the playing field by charging sales tax on on-line sales.
What the customer fails to realize is that buying locally allows you tho fully inspect the firearm before you buy it, and way back in the day when local guns shops took their job seriously, they would also inspect all the firearms that came in closely for defects.
Some of it however is also the fault of LGS's today. For example, I recall Remington shipping a Model 7 that had a warped stock that pressed on the barrel. We called to send it back and Remington offered us a hefty discount to just keep it. We didn't want to sell factory seconds so we declined. However, I have no doubt that Model 7 ended up on the rack in a department store or big box gun store, and they probably got it at the same super low price it was offered to us.
That used to be the difference between buying at a LGS versus a department store. Unfortunately, the first time many LGS staff no longer careful inspect firearms that come in - as evidenced by how many I see with issues, as I insist on fully inspecting a new firearm before I purchase.
Worse is what happens if you have a defective firearm. Way too many LGS's are going to tell you to return it to the manufacturer on your own, instead of swapping it out for another than have in stock, or handling the return for you. With that LGS attitude, they are offering no real advantage over just buying on line.
I agree a lot with the above. I am usually looking for something very specific when it's time to buy. I've browsed a few LGSs in the last few years, I'm not very impressed. I would rather pay a bit more to a local mom and pop, but not if I get no service and or treated like ****. There's a couple places I don't mind going into but for the most part, I'd rather just order it and not have to deal with somebody telling me they only sell 22WMR not 22 Magnum or that my AR is **** what I really need is this awesome WASR.
This isn't just gun shops though, it's pretty much everywhere. My mail lady hates me I think
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This isn't just gun shops though, it's pretty much everywhere. My mail lady hates me I think
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What people don't understand is that many internet sellers have no or very little overhead. So it's impossible for a mom and pop stores to compete.
With little or no overhead an internet seller can stock up on guns or in most cases place your order with a distributor and have it shipped directly to you. The more guns they sell, the better the prices they get from the distributor. And if they move a lot of guns they usually have first choice of hard to find guns. The distributors play favorites and the mom and pop stores don't have a chance in hell.
All over a saving a few bucks.
Buying online......
When i add shipping and transfer fees to the great price I got on the internet, it doesn't look like such a great price any more.
I buy from both the internet and the brick and mortar stores. Nobody has an exclusive on my business,
When i add shipping and transfer fees to the great price I got on the internet, it doesn't look like such a great price any more.
I buy from both the internet and the brick and mortar stores. Nobody has an exclusive on my business,
It's impossible to compete on price, but they can certainly compete on service.
Sadly, it's the "service" where local gun shops start to fall down and it goes beyond a failure to do good inspections of all the firearms they stock to ensure the customer gets a quality firearm
Yesterday for example, I bought another FEG P9 Hi Power (I like them and they can still be found in excellent condition at good prices). The local gun shop had a P9 and a 1st gen P9M. I asked to look at them, given that they are surplus, the excellent exterior appearance isn't the full story so I wanted to field strip them. The guy showing them to me said "no" but was immediately over ruled by his daughter who pointed out I'm a regular and I made a lot pf prior purchases.
She recognized the situation for what it was and in the process made a sale. He stood there looking constipated as I field stripped the P9M, and discovered a rusty and pitted bore and some other internal rust. I showed him the rust and then rejected it as an option (although I may reconsider if they'll knock $100 of the already very reasonable price to cover the cost of a new barrel.)
The P9 got the same treatment, and while it was only about 95% on the bluing, the internal condition was great. So it went home with me.
A surplus FEG P9 is not a firearm I am inclined to buy on-line for the reason made obvious above, and I won't buy one locally if I cannot fully inspect it. The ability to allow a customer to inspect, and/or a no questions asked return policy is the "service" that a local gun shop can offer in this kind of situation and it adds value over an on-line purchase, and thus can justify a higher local purchase price.
In this case, it meant I bought an NRA "very good", near "excellent" condition FEG P9 for $329 ($352 with tax), when I would not buy the same pistol on-line for the $279 they've been selling for recently (given that an on-line purchased FEG P9 would quite possibly be in only "fair" condition, and after shipping and transfer fees would cost around $325 anyway). And if it had a rusty bore I'd be out of luck.
The lack of service applies to accessories as well.
For example, we have another shop in the area where I spend very little money. The reasons are obvious. Recently I was looking for a speed loader for a 686+, nothing fancy just an HKS 587. I could get one on Amazon for $10 with free two day shipping with Amazon Prime. However, I wanted to give the local gun shop a try. This shop normally stocked stuff like this, but did not have one currently. They indicated they could order one for me. (So far so good). I asked "How much?" and "How long?" and they indicated $20 and probably about 2 weeks FROM THE DATE OF THEIR NEXT ORDER - and they were not sure when the next order would go in.
I told them I'd check back in a month or so and see if they had one in stock. That's customer speak for: "Screw that, I'll order it from Amazon for half as much money and have the box on my front porch in 2 days".
The irony here is that if the local gun shop can ALSO order off Amazon, just like I can. All it would take, if they establish a Prime account, is a quick search and a click on the "buy it now with 1 click" radio button. In fact, I just did this in under 30 seconds. The top listing for "HKS 587 speed loader" is $9.99 and the estimated delivery date is tomorrow, given that it's still morning.
Similarly, the LGS could have told me as a Tuesday morning customer that it would be in the shop and ready for pickup probably on Thursday but for sure on Friday. If they took the customer service one step farther, they could take my number they could call me when it arrives to avoid a potential wasted trip if it arrived a day later than estimated.
They would have paid $9.99 just like me, but they still could have marked it up to their normal $20, or knowing they had cash in hand and an already made sale, they could have given me a discount and sold it for $15. They'd have made $5 or $10 for 2 or 3 minutes work, and made themselves the first stop for my shooting accessories.
But they didn't.
They are still stuck in a pre-internet, send in an order form to your supplier every month or so world. They are not going to thrive in the real world.
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I bought an AR-10 a few years ago from Bud's. I printed the online ad, showed it to my LGS, and he called his distributor. Bud's price was less than his price from his distributor. He said I should buy from Bud's. I did. He transferred it.
Apparently, my dealer had some sort of contract with the distributor requiring him to get his new guns exclusively from the distributor.
He then priced his guns at some margin over what his distributor charged him. It wasn't competitive.
I haven't bought a gun from Bud's in over 5 years. They are no longer competitive. LGS selling guns at retail still has some business, but not for the enthusiast who wants to save money and has an internet connection.
FYI, off the top of my head, most recent purchases were from topgunsupply, tooeleshootingsupply, and hinterlandoutfitters. Once I decide what I want, I shop around. Duh web makes it easy to do.
Apparently, my dealer had some sort of contract with the distributor requiring him to get his new guns exclusively from the distributor.
He then priced his guns at some margin over what his distributor charged him. It wasn't competitive.
I haven't bought a gun from Bud's in over 5 years. They are no longer competitive. LGS selling guns at retail still has some business, but not for the enthusiast who wants to save money and has an internet connection.
FYI, off the top of my head, most recent purchases were from topgunsupply, tooeleshootingsupply, and hinterlandoutfitters. Once I decide what I want, I shop around. Duh web makes it easy to do.
Having worked for a small business for the past 25 years, I understand what's it's like to be competitive and still pay the bills. Most people don't. They don't know anything about quarterly taxes, overhead, insurance, pay, benefits etc......
Some people just don't care. All they can see is what's immediately in front of them. The future means nothing. They will run to the internet or all the way across town to save a measly $20. To each their own. But again, we will all pay for it later.
If your local LGS isn't taking care of you then they don't deserve your business. But the real questions is this, are you being fair? Do you expect too much? Are you being reasonable?
With the experience that I have and having worked part time at three local gun shops part time for last 10-12 years, I can say without a doubt that many customers are stupid, inconsiderate, and full of BS. And dealing with these people on a daily basis day after day for years gets old quick.
If you fall into the above category, you probably don't even know it. Either way shame on you. If you don't, support your local business.
Rant off. I'm done preaching.
Some people just don't care. All they can see is what's immediately in front of them. The future means nothing. They will run to the internet or all the way across town to save a measly $20. To each their own. But again, we will all pay for it later.
If your local LGS isn't taking care of you then they don't deserve your business. But the real questions is this, are you being fair? Do you expect too much? Are you being reasonable?
With the experience that I have and having worked part time at three local gun shops part time for last 10-12 years, I can say without a doubt that many customers are stupid, inconsiderate, and full of BS. And dealing with these people on a daily basis day after day for years gets old quick.
If you fall into the above category, you probably don't even know it. Either way shame on you. If you don't, support your local business.
Rant off. I'm done preaching.
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The new model for gun stores seems to be:
1. Small inventory of new guns. The cost of a large inventory is too expensive. You keep a few on hand because there's always somebody that wants one now plus you'll sell a few to the people who take...
2. Training classes and/or Carry License classes. A captive audience you can pitch.
3. Online sales through the store via their own website that links to the store's distributor or Davidson's Gallery of Guns. These offer value as it simplifies the online purchase. In my experience the cost may be a little bit more, like $20-$30, than doing your own but it does support your FFL a little more and is a tad more convenient.
4. Ordinary FFL transfers, but the smart shops leave their FFL on file and permit the large internet sites to list them as "preferred" where they can ship to the FFL without getting permission first. Sign your FFL up with Kentucky Gun / Palmetto State / Bud's as preferred FFL and you'll catch a lot of business.
You need excellent email communication, with clear and concise instructions and a online form if possible.
I dealt with a guy who operated like this. Normal retail gun sales were the smallest part of his business. His classes were busy at $90 a head and was doing half a dozen transfers a day plus a couple of online store/Davidson's. He sold a few a week retail. I think with this model you capture the whole market. Newbies wanting classes and/or the comfort level of dealing with one entity, and the guys like us who are more involved.
This works well in a larger population area. Out in the country things are different. That's a whole different ballgame.
1. Small inventory of new guns. The cost of a large inventory is too expensive. You keep a few on hand because there's always somebody that wants one now plus you'll sell a few to the people who take...
2. Training classes and/or Carry License classes. A captive audience you can pitch.
3. Online sales through the store via their own website that links to the store's distributor or Davidson's Gallery of Guns. These offer value as it simplifies the online purchase. In my experience the cost may be a little bit more, like $20-$30, than doing your own but it does support your FFL a little more and is a tad more convenient.
4. Ordinary FFL transfers, but the smart shops leave their FFL on file and permit the large internet sites to list them as "preferred" where they can ship to the FFL without getting permission first. Sign your FFL up with Kentucky Gun / Palmetto State / Bud's as preferred FFL and you'll catch a lot of business.
You need excellent email communication, with clear and concise instructions and a online form if possible.
I dealt with a guy who operated like this. Normal retail gun sales were the smallest part of his business. His classes were busy at $90 a head and was doing half a dozen transfers a day plus a couple of online store/Davidson's. He sold a few a week retail. I think with this model you capture the whole market. Newbies wanting classes and/or the comfort level of dealing with one entity, and the guys like us who are more involved.
This works well in a larger population area. Out in the country things are different. That's a whole different ballgame.
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They are still customers. Maybe you should be doing something else.
Shame? I have no duty to support any business. The marketplace determines who thrives. It doesn't care about 'local business.' Free enterprise. Free is good.
Most of us who are,or were, in business for ourselves have to deal with a certain number of lost causes.Some of us are polite about it,some aren't.If you're dealing with a business owner who annoys you,he doesn't want your business. Whether he's burned out,just plain anti social or sees you as a time suck who never spends a dime [emoji14] it's just better to move on [emoji1]
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Arik
Member
I have 4 gun stores within 10 min drive from my house.3 of them are what you would call mom and pop but they are not really mom and pop in the true sense of the word. They are family businesses. They stock more manufacturers and models then corporate stores. Selections are huge with a big turn over. There is no shortage of used guns of just about every type. None of the 3 care if you order from elsewhere and have it shipped to them. Money is still money whether it's from a sale or a transfer. The only thing one doesn't do is private party transfers. You can order online and have it shipped to them but they won't do a transfer between two individuals. The fourth store is Gander Mountain. Been in there twice. Have yet to buy anything. Gun selection is limited compared to the mom and pop stores and prices are insane. It not even worth it to buy something just because your already there.
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martybee
Member
I have 6- LGS within 15 mins. drive. Two have indoor ranges and teach CC classes. The one I frequent most has an annual membership fee of: $200. He sells new firearms at the MSLP and rarely discounts them. I have been a member for several years and enjoy shooting at his indoor range. I get to renew my membership at the Senior Citizen rate of $125. If I buy a gun, the membership is Free! Therefore I suppory my local B&M GS and get a nice discount off of the gun I choose to buy. My next gun will probably be a MP22c. List price is $379. I get to inspect, handel and decide, Yea or Nea; instead of buying it online and then having buyers remorse because of something defective with the online perchase!
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Nobody has "no" overhead. The large internet sellers have significant overhead. Bud's / Kentucky Gun et al are big operations with numerous employees, significant inventory, and IT costs. They just have lower overhead relative to their sales volume.
I've never seen a "drop-ship" on a firearm. The FFL transfer process would show that, and every gun I've ever gotten has come directly from the company I ordered it from. It would seem that the complication of the FFL requirements would preclude drop-shipping.
Absolutely. That happens across every industry and there's nothing wrong with it. Those who are most successful are rewarded. If you bust your hump moving 100,000 guns for somebody you should get a proportionate share of the hard to find stuff. The hard to find stuff is going to be used as a reward to their top customers. The guys on the bottom will get nothing.
So do the Mom and Pops think there should be some sort of Socialist system where everybody gets their "fair share"? Seriously?
All over a saving a few bucks.
Most of the time it's more than a few bucks. $20 wouldn't bother me. But 20% is more common.
If the Mom and Pops want to protect their business they should put in the work and risk the capital to become internet sellers. But no, they'd rather we support what is really their chosen "lifestyle". I don't really understand the "pay more later". That's far from a foregone conclusion. It would assume the market forces that have caused the current situation reverse themselves. I find that highly unlikely.
What is a foregone conclusion is that we'd pay more now.
Arik
Member
If I'm buying online it's because the price was too good to pass up or it's something that the store can't get normally. Otherwise I buy from one of the 3 stores. I don't do this because I'm trying to support a local business, I'm doing it because the price is good. But it's a two way street. They support their customers by having good prices and good service and I support them by giving them my money. And I shop between the 3 stores. One may have the same gun $30 cheaper, the other may have more options for a specific manufacturer or better ammo prices.
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