Looking at an ar

[cyphertext]

As for the trigger guard, the swing down milspec design is generally thought to be weaker than an integral guard because it is possible for a blow to that area to break an ear off. Now, you have to ask yourself this.... Have you ever personally known anyone who broke an ear off? I've never even seen a pic on the internet of a broken ear. I think that argument is a moot point.

Yes, I have seen people who have broken the ear off. Most of the time it happens when someone is building a rifle and does not take care to support the ears when installing the trigger guard. If they break the rear ear, they will usually buy a grip like the Stark Rifle Grip that has a trigger guard built in and covers up the rear ears.

 

[cyphertext]

I'm sure I'll use it to take a deer or coyote WOULD love to go hog hunting one day so there's my buying points.

You have contradicting statements... you say you have other guns for hunting, but then you say you would use it for hunting...

If you are going to use it for hunting and will be using the solid copper bullets like Barnes TSX, I would go with the faster twist. The 1:9 will work for the 55 gr and 62 gr, but the 70 gr need a 1:8 twist. These projectiles are longer than a comparable weight lead projectile, as these are all copper. The longer projectile requires the faster twist rate.

 

[sgtsandman]

And from what I seen the barrel is 4140 its Chrome lined and so is a lot of the parts in the receiver so it should hold up and last a lifetime? Plus it has the better 1:7 twist from what I was told

That is only true if you plan to shoot heavier grain bullets because of their longer length. The "sweet spot" twist is believed to be 1:8 but for the average shooter, 1:9 will work just fine and they wouldn't notice a difference between the two.

Match the barrel to what you want to do. A 1:7 will eliminate most light grain bullets either because they will disintegrate in flight or won't stabilize properly. Conversely, the 1:9 can't handle most heavy bullets because it can't stabilize them well enough for accurate groups. A varmint hunter might want the 1:9 because of the light bullets. A precision target shooter will want the 1:7, especially if they shoot long range. They need the heavy bullets to keep the velocity up as long as possible for those long shots.

 

[Flash_80]

Match the barrel to what you want to do. A 1:7 will eliminate most light grain bullets either because they will disintegrate in flight or won't stabilize properly.

From one barrel to the next could always be different, but this is 100yds from a Sig M400 with a 1:7 twist using 50gr American Eagle .223 hollow points. Never tried a 40gr or anything that lighweight before though.

 

[sgtsandman]

From one barrel to the next could always be different, but this is 100yds from a Sig M400 with a 1:7 twist using 50gr American Eagle .223 hollow points. Never tried a 40gr or anything that lighweight before though.

Very true and nice group! Typically speaking (because every barrel is different) 50 grain would be your (and mine) bottom end. Some barrels might be able to go lower and some won't be able to go that low.

As a result, it's difficult to get into specifics and have to go with the "general rule"

What works great in one rifle might not in another of the same exact make and model.


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[Brian in Oregon]

The issue is not what happens at 100 yards with light bullets in a 1:7" twist. Often they will turn in very decent close range groups, sometimes the groups will be more open that heavier bullets.

The problem happens at ranges where the bullet has passed its midpoint trajectory and is descending.

The bullet is overstabilized by the excessive twist rate. Instead of descending with the nose following the flight path, the nose remains up. At very long range the bullet can hit with the side of its nose or body, instead of the tip of its nose. In addition, the bullet has a tendency to yaw to the side. The drawing above is a bit exaggerated, but it illustrates the point.

Does this mean you should avoid 55 grainers in a 1:7" twist? Nope. As long as the rpm's don't blow them up, shoot them. But just realize the twist rate is not ideal for them. Myself, I shoot almost exclusively 55 grainers for general purpose and hunting. So it makes sense for me to go with an optimal twist for those bullets. I'm not going to be bothering with long range shots with an AR15. I have other rifles in other calibers for that.

 

[C J]

A precision target shooter will want the 1:7, especially if they shoot long range. They need the heavy bullets to keep the velocity up as long as possible for those long shots.

I really don't want to open up the twist rate discussion again but I would like to point out that my Savage 12 LRPV (Long Range Precision Varmint) rifle has a 1:9 twist and it does extremely well at 500 yards with 75 gr. bullets. That is the best weight for the rifle in fact.

I've shot lots of groups under 5" at 500 yards with that rifle. I shot one group that was 1" at that distance. Strangely enough that was with 52 gr. ammo. It just happened to be a really nice run of ammo. Yes I used off the shelf ammo. Black Hills ammo to be exact.

I really don't have a lot of targets to show because the range where I did my shooting had a dip between the benches and the target area which meant you could be caught in that zone when someone else showed up and started shooting. So I had to be content with shooting pieces of clay pigeons and targets painted on rocks. But with the right spotting scope it isn't hard to tell where you're hitting at that range. One target I do have a photo of, was painted on a rock. Actually I have a hole where the target had been. I knocked off every piece of that target including small pieces below 1" in size with maybe 15 rounds to do it. It was about a 5" target. Anyway here's the rifle and what's left of the target I mentioned.

I circled the area I chipped out and another painted spot which is what the spot looked like that I shot. I only shot one of the targets. But you can see that I got every bit of paint and that included a last bit that was left on a piece of rock no bigger than an inch.

Sorry about the long post. I rarely talk about this target online but it does show that a 1:9 twist rifle can shoot well at longer distances with heavy bullets (75gr).

I'm including a photo of the rifle also. One more thing. Notice there are no bullet holes around the hole where the target was. This LRPV will put every round in a group that size including the 15 or so it took me to knock out the small pieces of this "target".

 

[cyphertext]

I really don't want to open up the twist rate discussion again but I would like to point out that my Savage 12 LRPV (Long Range Precision Varmint) rifle has a 1:9 twist and it does extremely well at 500 yards with 75 gr. bullets. That is the best weight for the rifle in fact.

I've shot lots of groups under 5" at 500 yards with that rifle. I shot one group that was 1" at that distance. Strangely enough that was with 52 gr. ammo. It just happened to be a really nice run of ammo. Yes I used off the shelf ammo. Black Hills ammo to be exact.

I really don't have a lot of targets to show because the range where I did my shooting had a dip between the benches and the target area which meant you could be caught in that zone when someone else showed up and started shooting. So I had to be content with shooting pieces of clay pigeons and targets painted on rocks. But with the right spotting scope it isn't hard to tell where you're hitting at that range. One target I do have a photo of, was painted on a rock. Actually I have a hole where the target had been. I knocked off every piece of that target including small pieces below 1" in size with maybe 15 rounds to do it. It was about a 5" target. Anyway here's the rifle and what's left of the target I mentioned.

I circled the area I chipped out and another painted spot which is what the spot looked like that I shot. I only shot one of the targets. But you can see that I got every bit of paint and that included a last bit that was left on a piece of rock no bigger than an inch.

Sorry about the long post. I rarely talk about this target online but it does show that a 1:9 twist rifle can shoot well at longer distances with heavy bullets (75gr).

I'm including a photo of the rifle also. One more thing. Notice there are no bullet holes around the hole where the target was. This LRPV will put every round in a group that size including the 15 or so it took me to knock out the small pieces of this "target".

CJ, I don't think we can realistically compare a bolt gun specifically built for long range shooting to an AR. Again, yes, your rifle, the single example, may stabilize the 75 gr, but the likelihood of a 16" AR barrel with a 1:9 twist not being able to stabilize a 75 gr is is much higher than getting one that will. If you are going to shoot longer projectiles in an AR, you are better off with a faster twist, plain and simple.

I think Savage agrees as well, since they also offer the same rifle in a 1:7 twist.

 

[Pro2nd]

The only thing I can possibly suggest here is..

take your time deciding.. Read tons, ask questions galore etc..

The elections are over, and I don't for'see another "Scare" any time real soon..

 

[sgtsandman]

I agree with cyphertext. A bolt rifle with a heavy barrel is a very different animal than an AR with the same twist. That being said, every firearm is different and doesn't always follow the general rules that they are supposed to. Some will shoot more and better than they are supposed to be able to and others will be less.

 

[ameridaddy]

Super - you mentioned you might use it for hunting. Check your game laws for minimum caliber. Here in Virginia, for deer hunting, a rifle must be at least .23 caliber, if rifle hunting is allowed at all. Some places allow nothing but shotgun.

 

[C J]

CJ, I don't think we can realistically compare a bolt gun specifically built for long range shooting to an AR. Again, yes, your rifle, the single example, may stabilize the 75 gr, but the likelihood of a 16" AR barrel with a 1:9 twist not being able to stabilize a 75 gr is is much higher than getting one that will. If you are going to shoot longer projectiles in an AR, you are better off with a faster twist, plain and simple.

I think Savage agrees as well, since they also offer the same rifle in a 1:7 twist.

I can see where a shorter barrel requires a faster twist for heavier bullets. But the word was that Savage built the 1:7 version of the LRPV for 79 gr. bullets. Every source I found at the time said the 1:9 would do 75gr. or very close to it. It doesn't matter. I just wanted to show that 1:9 can work in some sitruations. Maybe I just wanted to show off my target. I don't know. I will say I saw some AR's on the 500 yard range that weren't doing terrible or anything. I really don't know what twist rate they had.

 

[superdutyscaler]

We can't hunt in new jersey with rifles, they say the area of the state is too small. I was looking online and might just build a gun, then I could make it how I want but all I need is a gun that looks like the ones I posted but I'm still undecided and will do a ton of research before I make my final decision

 

[superdutyscaler]

 

[cyphertext]

Is there a question tied to this? Also, this is a rifle with a 20" barrel and fixed stock, where you have previously been looking at carbines with 16" barrels and collapsible stocks.

 

[superdutyscaler]

Well you told me to do research and I can't find a 1:8 barrel from s&w or colt. The s&w rifles from what I have now found out and getting made with **** material. Inferior barrel lining now and cheaply assembly (all online info not my own) I did think about it and I don't need a collapsible stock (I'm not in the Marines or army nor in combat so why do I need a stock that's only 6"? I also thought about what you asked about hunting with the gun, I want it for plinking but to change my answer yes I will most likely use it for hunting. Like my above post I want to go hog hunting so a lot of places use a helicopter and having the 20" barrel will greatly increase on point after firing and should help with balance and bullet spin across the grains

 

[Racer X]

Super - you mentioned you might use it for hunting. Check your game laws for minimum caliber. Here in Virginia, for deer hunting, a rifle must be at least .23 caliber, if rifle hunting is allowed at all. Some places allow nothing but shotgun.

Washington is .243 or better. Unless it is varmit eradication.

 

[sgtsandman]

Well you told me to do research and I can't find a 1:8 barrel from s&w or colt. The s&w rifles from what I have now found out and getting made with **** material. Inferior barrel lining now and cheaply assembly (all online info not my own) I did think about it and I don't need a collapsible stock (I'm not in the Marines or army nor in combat so why do I need a stock that's only 6"? I also thought about what you asked about hunting with the gun, I want it for plinking but to change my answer yes I will most likely use it for hunting. Like my above post I want to go hog hunting so a lot of places use a helicopter and having the 20" barrel will greatly increase on point after firing and should help with balance and bullet spin across the grains

I'm not sure what you are looking for in barrel lining. Chrome, while good isn't the rule to go by anymore. Nitride and melonite are just as good and in some cases better than chrome. Chrome barrel lining isn't as thick and can flake over time. Chrome in the bolt carrier group is still desirable.

The collapsible stock may still be desirable for hunting in different seasons to allow for heavier clothing but I don't know where you live, so that may not apply.

Ballistically speaking, 20" is the most desirable though you may want to consider 18" as an option since the loss in performance is minimal.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your preferences, only presenting things to think about.


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[osbornk]

Super - you mentioned you might use it for hunting. Check your game laws for minimum caliber. Here in Virginia, for deer hunting, a rifle must be at least .23 caliber, if rifle hunting is allowed at all. Some places allow nothing but shotgun.

I'm also in Virginia and it bothers me that I can't use my AR15 to hunt deer. I have always hunted deer with 00 buck shot that is less effective than my AR but legal. If I wanted to go hunting now, I would use my 12 gauge with sabot slugs in my rifled barrel with rifle sights. The range and accuracy is far less but it is legal.

I suspect the requirement was aimed at 22lr and 22 mag and 223 or 5.56 never crossed their mind.

 

[superdutyscaler]

Maybe I should just look into building my own ar?