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Luger P.08 age and value?
- Thread starter Masterbuck54
- Start date
Such as here, 1912:
Yes, I have a DWM manual with some info on it but the Hallock & van de Kamp is probably the best and most exhaustive info on the Pistole Null-Acht made between 1930-1945, unfortunately those are not found on the used market for under $800.
The P08 officially became the P.08 in 1941, that is also the year that the P38 became the P.38. The model shown by the OP has no Mauser hump, i.e. it is most likely not a Mauser made frame and that puts it well before 1941.
As to the two digits on the small parts, those were usually just numbered with the last wo digits and give a clue but no certainty.
The gun pictured to the right is pretty identical with the Swiss 06/29 - when chambered in 7,65 Para.
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Here's another forum with outstanding experts on the P.08:
Pistole Parabellum
They eat up solving these kinds of mysteries. (My personal bet it that it was refinished after a complete strip....but ask these guys, they'll figure it out.)
Pistole Parabellum
They eat up solving these kinds of mysteries. (My personal bet it that it was refinished after a complete strip....but ask these guys, they'll figure it out.)
DWalt
Member
I would think not, as it apparently never had a factory-applied SN.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
And since pronunciation was addressed earlier:
The P.08 in common German parlance was always simply the “null-acht”, without the P. I had folks in my parents’ and grandparents’ generation with first-hand experience. They’d never heard the name “Luger”, by the way, until I mentioned it after reading my first English gun books (Ian Hogg, I believe) in the 1970s.
The P.38, on the other hand, never was the “drei-acht”, as one might expect, but always fully pronounced with the P as “P achtunddreissig”.
The P.08 in common German parlance was always simply the “null-acht”, without the P. I had folks in my parents’ and grandparents’ generation with first-hand experience. They’d never heard the name “Luger”, by the way, until I mentioned it after reading my first English gun books (Ian Hogg, I believe) in the 1970s.
The P.38, on the other hand, never was the “drei-acht”, as one might expect, but always fully pronounced with the P as “P achtunddreissig”.
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Hey, the serial number is obviously 02
At $170 for this Luger, me don’t know nuthin’ better ....
Et tu, Brutus?
That in itself. Would be very strange indeed.
They were only marked as P.08 because, and when, the "new" model P.38 started to appear(yes. In spite of being called P.38. They only started to reach the "customers" in 1940.
Walther was at "full swing" in 1941 only and Mauser was ordered to end P.08 production in 1942 and start P.38 production instead).
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'NSN' is a valid FFL log book entry IF the gun was mfg'd that way.
..and some .22rf long guns and some shotguns were before GCA'68.
Prior to GCA'68, all handguns (and centerfire rifles) had to be serial numbered if mfg'rd in the USA.
The only thing that changed with the implementation of the GCA68 was that from then on (12/'68 and forward),,cal.22rf long guns and all shotguns were ALSO required to be ser#'d by their mfg'r.
The removal, alteration,obliteration of a mfg'rs applied ser# or possession or sale of a firearm with such a ser# has been a Fed. Felony since the Federal Firearms Act 1938 (FDR).
Wikidedia can't seem to get this right.
As to the Luger, It looks like a Refinished Luger that also has some replacement parts on it. Some of those replacements may/may not have been refinished. Or they may have been refinished at another time. Not the same bluing batch.
The toggle is 'blank'. That isn't all that unusual in a heavy refinish. If pitted there the flat area is easily taken down to elliminate the pitting and the marking disappears.
The toggle looks taken down considerably in the pic, almost to the edge of the chamfer on both sides of the toggle block.
Proofs disappear from the sides of the upper and the sides of the toggle(s) during polishing also. They are not that heavily punched anyway.
It looks like there is a Ser# on the bottom edge of the side plate.
If so that would be a Commercial Model side plate and that style Ser#'g placement.
But the side plate could be just another replacement part w/another #.
A replacement bbl perhaps. Those un#'d/ void of markings but finished bbls were very common at one time not all that long ago.
The Frame Ser# can be ground off on a belt grinder in a couple swipes during a refinish if you'r not careful or watchful,,or don't care.
If it was indeed a Commercial model, there would not have been a chamber marking to begin with.
There would have been a toggle marking (DWM..)
A simple commercial proof on the front left side of the upper most likely (Crown/N) and then the much less crowded commercial ser# marking placement.
The lack of frame ser# is something for others to sort out. It's been beaten to death here many times.
All I can say is everyone knows what the simple Fed Reg says and it hasn't ever changed since 1938.
..and Parabellums weren't mfg'd w/o ser#'s.
JM.02
..and some .22rf long guns and some shotguns were before GCA'68.
Prior to GCA'68, all handguns (and centerfire rifles) had to be serial numbered if mfg'rd in the USA.
The only thing that changed with the implementation of the GCA68 was that from then on (12/'68 and forward),,cal.22rf long guns and all shotguns were ALSO required to be ser#'d by their mfg'r.
The removal, alteration,obliteration of a mfg'rs applied ser# or possession or sale of a firearm with such a ser# has been a Fed. Felony since the Federal Firearms Act 1938 (FDR).
Wikidedia can't seem to get this right.
As to the Luger, It looks like a Refinished Luger that also has some replacement parts on it. Some of those replacements may/may not have been refinished. Or they may have been refinished at another time. Not the same bluing batch.
The toggle is 'blank'. That isn't all that unusual in a heavy refinish. If pitted there the flat area is easily taken down to elliminate the pitting and the marking disappears.
The toggle looks taken down considerably in the pic, almost to the edge of the chamfer on both sides of the toggle block.
Proofs disappear from the sides of the upper and the sides of the toggle(s) during polishing also. They are not that heavily punched anyway.
It looks like there is a Ser# on the bottom edge of the side plate.
If so that would be a Commercial Model side plate and that style Ser#'g placement.
But the side plate could be just another replacement part w/another #.
A replacement bbl perhaps. Those un#'d/ void of markings but finished bbls were very common at one time not all that long ago.
The Frame Ser# can be ground off on a belt grinder in a couple swipes during a refinish if you'r not careful or watchful,,or don't care.
If it was indeed a Commercial model, there would not have been a chamber marking to begin with.
There would have been a toggle marking (DWM..)
A simple commercial proof on the front left side of the upper most likely (Crown/N) and then the much less crowded commercial ser# marking placement.
The lack of frame ser# is something for others to sort out. It's been beaten to death here many times.
All I can say is everyone knows what the simple Fed Reg says and it hasn't ever changed since 1938.
..and Parabellums weren't mfg'd w/o ser#'s.
JM.02
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They were only marked as P.08 because, and when, the "new" model P.38 started to appear(yes. In spite of being called P.38. They only started to reach the "customers" in 1940.
The . was put by Wehrmacht requirement, nothing else.
Exactly, that one was NOT manufactured here. I was referring to ATF info, not internet lore. We have had enough of that in this thread alone. And guesses, too.
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Strange things happen. I will not make an assessment of the gun based on photos that can be deceiving but I see no sign of an aggressive refinish, enough to grind markings off.
However, I can assure you that there are always ways to do things - and Germans did not only come with great technical designs but with ways to avoid being controlled by the government.
I learnt chess from an early age on and am trying to be at least one move ahead of the the other guy.
schutzen-jager
Member
serial numbers on handguns required prior to 1968 - GCA 68 added long arms to serial number requirements - entry on 4473 can only be used legally on firearms that are documented as being manufactured with out a serial number -
schutzen-jager
Member
serial number required on all commercially imported foreign pistols prior to GCA 68 -
Quoted from Section D Question 24-28 ATF Form 4473, revised October 2016:
Firearms manufactured after 1968 by Federal firearms licenses should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e. pre-1968): you may answer question 26 with"NSN" ( No Serial Number), "N/A" or "None".
Current import rules by ATF would require the markings of the importer, calibre, model, country of origin, manufacturer and serial number to be engraved in a conspicuous way with a minimum size of 1/16" height and 0.003"depth.
Since I do not know if this was a commercially manufactured gun and no importer marks indicate an import by a licensed importer post 1968, I would answer Question 26 in Section D, the one the FFL fills out, as "NSN".
I am more concerned with the fact, that I could only guess that DWM made the frame but that is a guess, nothing more.
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schutzen-jager
Member
serial numbers on pistols go back to late 1800's well before ATF existed + firearms were controlled by U.S. Treasury Dept. regulations -
Look at the frame where the ser# is supposed to be,,,does it look like it's been gone over with a belt grinder or a file?
Plenty of guns show up all the time with the ser# gone from a previous refinishing job.
It's not hard to tell they've been refinished at some point.
A quick measurement will also tell if the front of the frame has been taken down and the # removed.
If they look like the # has been erased,,then the # has been obliterated.
You know what that means
If it was stolen from the factory before ser#'g,,then is stolen.
Time doesn't make either one of those facts go away.
You can rationalize it away anyway you like, but reality remains.
No Lugers were manufactured with out serial numbers (or proof marks or Manufacturers markings),,That includes Military or Commercial production.
Plenty of guns show up all the time with the ser# gone from a previous refinishing job.
It's not hard to tell they've been refinished at some point.
A quick measurement will also tell if the front of the frame has been taken down and the # removed.
If they look like the # has been erased,,then the # has been obliterated.
You know what that means
If it was stolen from the factory before ser#'g,,then is stolen.
Time doesn't make either one of those facts go away.
You can rationalize it away anyway you like, but reality remains.
No Lugers were manufactured with out serial numbers (or proof marks or Manufacturers markings),,That includes Military or Commercial production.
Gene L
Member
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We can speculate how come the pistol is not serial numbered, but it all boils down to the fact that it's not serial numbered now. Which means you'd have a hard time selling it legally. It's in too-good shape to be original finish, so we can assume comfortably (I think) that it's been polished heavily, and done quite well. The Whys it was done we'll never know.
It may very well have been refinished, I couldn't tell without having it in hand, but you can't base it on "in too-good shape to be original finish". There are superb condition Lugers out there are 100% original.
