OP
Arthury
Member
The link is broken. Can you please provide a working one? Thanks!
M&P9 vs Beretta M9A1
- Thread starter Arthury
- Start date
The link is broken. Can you please provide a working one? Thanks!
Rangel
Member
Arthury:
Sorry about that--here it is:
www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_ArmyPistol.htm
I copied n pasted and mistakedly thought for some reason there still needed to be an 'L' on the end of it--as in HTML.
Just for your trouble, I'm going to give you another link that a few of my friends and I enjoy:
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
One thing it'll 'learn you' is that when you absolutely, postively have to shoot thru a one and a quarter thick piece of bullet resistant glass, forget about your 45 ACP pistol--heck forget about your AR15! But my old cheapo 12 gauge Mossberg 500, shooting a lead ball, will go through it like butter, while a 7.62X39 or even a 7.62X51 bullet won't.
That's great, because it hurts my back toting a Barrett 50 caliber M82 (don't we ALL have one?) around! Now that's a gun for when you REALLY want to "reach out and touch someone!"
From Box O' Truth's 'Orginal Chapters" (click on top at main site) here ya go--> The Box O' Truth #6 - Ballistic Resistant Glass Gets Tested - Page 1
Glad to hear back from someone on this site--even if it was to say I screwed up--where's the social banter around here?
Sorry about that--here it is:
www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_ArmyPistol.htm
I copied n pasted and mistakedly thought for some reason there still needed to be an 'L' on the end of it--as in HTML.
Just for your trouble, I'm going to give you another link that a few of my friends and I enjoy:
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
One thing it'll 'learn you' is that when you absolutely, postively have to shoot thru a one and a quarter thick piece of bullet resistant glass, forget about your 45 ACP pistol--heck forget about your AR15! But my old cheapo 12 gauge Mossberg 500, shooting a lead ball, will go through it like butter, while a 7.62X39 or even a 7.62X51 bullet won't.
That's great, because it hurts my back toting a Barrett 50 caliber M82 (don't we ALL have one?) around! Now that's a gun for when you REALLY want to "reach out and touch someone!"
From Box O' Truth's 'Orginal Chapters" (click on top at main site) here ya go--> The Box O' Truth #6 - Ballistic Resistant Glass Gets Tested - Page 1
Glad to hear back from someone on this site--even if it was to say I screwed up--where's the social banter around here?
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JarE-3
Member
You can get through ballsitic glass with a 12 Gauge slug? I would assume that's a rifled slug out of a smooth bore gun? Good to know! Got any pics of the aftermath? I'll see if I can dig up the caliber testing I did on an old ballistic vest (.9mm out of an M9, which I love btw vs. .45 ACP out of a P220). I didn't have a shotgun to test at the time, but if I can get a hold of some more old pannels, I'll give results and social banter!
P.S. - The .9mm did better than the .45 but still did not penetrate!
P.S. - The .9mm did better than the .45 but still did not penetrate!
Rangel
Member
JarE-3,
Did you look at the Box O' Truth pictures/videos? I'd like to see what the 5.7 X 28mm round would do on that 1 & 1/4" 'bullet resistant glass'. We had a shoot out in my city recently and a couple rounds went thru TWO cars. If you haven't, have a look at the ballistics photos on that bad bear!
The 20 ounce FNH (FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28) pistol that shoots that wickedly deadly little round, (and holds 20 rounds in the smallish pistol) is quite the force to be reckoned with--it's like a friggin assault rifle, but in a plastic pistol that shoots very flat--more in terms of recoil, like a Crossman C02 pellet gun than a 40 or 45. Other than thick steel and bricks, not much else can stop it. If someone gets tagged by that little monster, even in just the hand or foot, chances are they'll bleed to death before any ambulance can even get them into the E.R.
Did you look at the Box O' Truth pictures/videos? I'd like to see what the 5.7 X 28mm round would do on that 1 & 1/4" 'bullet resistant glass'. We had a shoot out in my city recently and a couple rounds went thru TWO cars. If you haven't, have a look at the ballistics photos on that bad bear!
The 20 ounce FNH (FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28) pistol that shoots that wickedly deadly little round, (and holds 20 rounds in the smallish pistol) is quite the force to be reckoned with--it's like a friggin assault rifle, but in a plastic pistol that shoots very flat--more in terms of recoil, like a Crossman C02 pellet gun than a 40 or 45. Other than thick steel and bricks, not much else can stop it. If someone gets tagged by that little monster, even in just the hand or foot, chances are they'll bleed to death before any ambulance can even get them into the E.R.
JarE-3
Member
Yeah, I like their tests. They do a lot of "practical" testing. I especially liked the videos of the old kevlar brain bucket. I was kinda surprised and relieved at the same time. I never had to use on in combat, but it makes me feel a little better about the guys and gals that do.
As far as the 5.7x28 goes, I don't know much about it, but I think you would need the AP rounds to get any kind of penetration through ballistic material. I may be wrong about that one, so I'm gonna go check after I get done here. IMHO the round is a fad for civilians. It's way too expesive around here and equally hard to find. If I venture into the land of EBRs I'd most likely go with the tried and true AK-47. Flame suit on. I had too many bad experiences with my M16 (it was the A2 version) jamming from dirt, sand, or my platoon Sgt looking at it mean.
Along those lines, I could digress for hours about why I think the .40 and .357 Sig were answers to questions that were never asked as well. That might be fodder for PM's or a new thread though.
As far as the 5.7x28 goes, I don't know much about it, but I think you would need the AP rounds to get any kind of penetration through ballistic material. I may be wrong about that one, so I'm gonna go check after I get done here. IMHO the round is a fad for civilians. It's way too expesive around here and equally hard to find. If I venture into the land of EBRs I'd most likely go with the tried and true AK-47. Flame suit on. I had too many bad experiences with my M16 (it was the A2 version) jamming from dirt, sand, or my platoon Sgt looking at it mean.
Along those lines, I could digress for hours about why I think the .40 and .357 Sig were answers to questions that were never asked as well. That might be fodder for PM's or a new thread though.
Rangel
Member
I have heard that a 22 magnum will go through kevlar vests and a 5.7 x 28 will indeed do the same thing--the 5.7 X 28even with level 2 vests, w/o using AP ammo.
There are just some things I don't like about that gun/round, the least of which is if they started anything like another assault rifle ban, the 5.7 X 28 might be the first to go, pistol, bullpup 'rifle' and all....
There are just some things I don't like about that gun/round, the least of which is if they started anything like another assault rifle ban, the 5.7 X 28 might be the first to go, pistol, bullpup 'rifle' and all....
OP
Arthury
Member
Thanks for the good links! They were good reading.
One thing, though, he recommended a Kimber at the end of the article?
Based on my understanding, Kimber has gone thru quite a lot of re-org since the 1990's and thru 2005: filing for bankruptcy, sold and re-sold, firing of founder, etc. Is this company stable enough to warrant spending close to a $1K with them?
I see Ruger releasing their 1911 of late.
Besides Kimber, who else makes a decent 1911 enhanced with current technologies?
JarE-3
Member
I couldn't agree more with that last paragraph. As to 22 mag and vests, I don't know that one either. They're just too damn expensive to buy and shoot. I may have another oldie laying around, but I gotta dig.
Arthury,
Take a look at the Springfield 1911's. I passed on an Operator Champion for a good price (as in free as a gift) about 7 months ago and I'm still kicking myself for it.
Rangel
Member
I wasn't aware of the corporate ups and downs at Kimber, but I have heard and read that the quality of their pistols can vary greatly.
I think machining improvements in tightening tolerances in building 1911's which usually makes them more accurate, has been an improvement, but it's one that requires you to keep them cleaner to avoid jams and malfunctions, more the case than with older models.
Case in point, I was going to have a guy named Krebs do custom work on an AK 47 or AK74 for me. Well, the AK's are like Mossberg 500s---drop em in the mud, never maintain them and they'll still shoot---no, not as accurately as an AR or S&W15 assault rifle or Saiga shotgun, but you have plenty of cheap ammo to spread around and get the job done. It's a crudely built gun with sloppy tolerances and 'so so' accuracy, but is utterly relaible and is the weapon of choice in 3rd world hell holes all over the world. BUT when you tighten up the tolerances on an AK to the level of an AR or M&P 15, you get the same finicky performance, as it's suddenly more prone to sand and dirt causing malfunctions, etc. If you buy an AK,might as well leave it 'as is' I figure and/or buy an AR or M&P 15 that you can shoot grapes off the vine with.
A lot of people look at Para Ordnance bring a double stack magazine design to the 1911, effectively doubling capacity, as being a major improvement. Only having seven round capacity in a gun that can weigh over 40 ounces was seen by some as too big a sacrifice. Of course with a gun that heavy, if you ran out of bullets, throwing it at someone's head would probably kill them just as well!
Springfield and probably some other companies as well, have adopted double stack magazines. I never thought I'd be sort of recommending a Taurus, as my first gun was one and should've been called a 'stove pipe special' but they have improved the quality of some of their guns quite a bit. Some people more knowledgable than me, say their 1911 is pretty good and a bargain at that. Their stainless model looks pretty cool. The new Ruger 1911 looks great on paper and price, but I have seen too many new Ruger models come out and within a year, require factory modifications in their construction.
With this being the 100th anniversary of the 1911, a lot of companies are producing a lot of cheap as well as a lot of very fancy and expensive 1911s--from the Philippine made Rock Island for about $360, to ones costing 5 or 6 thousand bucks and at that, will probably never be shot, but kept in their presentation boxes.
Yea, I like to get a hot new pistol and I wanted a Kel-Tec PMR-30--that pistol was fairly small, light and held 30 rounds of the blazing fast 22 magnum, only to be cancelled due to problems they were having. All too often, buying a hot new model of a gun, makes you their 'beta tester' and within a year or two, they improve it, but won't do the same to your early production model under warranty.
I think machining improvements in tightening tolerances in building 1911's which usually makes them more accurate, has been an improvement, but it's one that requires you to keep them cleaner to avoid jams and malfunctions, more the case than with older models.
Case in point, I was going to have a guy named Krebs do custom work on an AK 47 or AK74 for me. Well, the AK's are like Mossberg 500s---drop em in the mud, never maintain them and they'll still shoot---no, not as accurately as an AR or S&W15 assault rifle or Saiga shotgun, but you have plenty of cheap ammo to spread around and get the job done. It's a crudely built gun with sloppy tolerances and 'so so' accuracy, but is utterly relaible and is the weapon of choice in 3rd world hell holes all over the world. BUT when you tighten up the tolerances on an AK to the level of an AR or M&P 15, you get the same finicky performance, as it's suddenly more prone to sand and dirt causing malfunctions, etc. If you buy an AK,might as well leave it 'as is' I figure and/or buy an AR or M&P 15 that you can shoot grapes off the vine with.
A lot of people look at Para Ordnance bring a double stack magazine design to the 1911, effectively doubling capacity, as being a major improvement. Only having seven round capacity in a gun that can weigh over 40 ounces was seen by some as too big a sacrifice. Of course with a gun that heavy, if you ran out of bullets, throwing it at someone's head would probably kill them just as well!
Springfield and probably some other companies as well, have adopted double stack magazines. I never thought I'd be sort of recommending a Taurus, as my first gun was one and should've been called a 'stove pipe special' but they have improved the quality of some of their guns quite a bit. Some people more knowledgable than me, say their 1911 is pretty good and a bargain at that. Their stainless model looks pretty cool. The new Ruger 1911 looks great on paper and price, but I have seen too many new Ruger models come out and within a year, require factory modifications in their construction.
With this being the 100th anniversary of the 1911, a lot of companies are producing a lot of cheap as well as a lot of very fancy and expensive 1911s--from the Philippine made Rock Island for about $360, to ones costing 5 or 6 thousand bucks and at that, will probably never be shot, but kept in their presentation boxes.
Yea, I like to get a hot new pistol and I wanted a Kel-Tec PMR-30--that pistol was fairly small, light and held 30 rounds of the blazing fast 22 magnum, only to be cancelled due to problems they were having. All too often, buying a hot new model of a gun, makes you their 'beta tester' and within a year or two, they improve it, but won't do the same to your early production model under warranty.
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JarE-3
Member
This is a great point. Usually recommending a Philippine 1911 will get you flamed, but since YOU did it...The RIA Tactical that I had (and foolishly sold) was THE gun that got me into tinkering. It was cheap when I bought it so I figured why not. Well let me tell you, that sucker was accurate as they came and ate WHATEVER I fed it. Some other companie to look ingto for that are Citadel (also an Armscor, but higher end than the RIA), and Metro Arms.
OP
Arthury
Member
Someone got me thinking about a 45ACP and now my mind is wondering ... 1911 or M&P45 ? You guys are cruel !!!! But I succumb to such cruelty with pleasure. 
Why 1911?
Why M&P45?
Why 1911?
- God-given trigger
- History in your hands
- Solid steel and I can probably pass it on to my kids and grandkids
- Same or better reliability than state-of-the-art M&P45 ??? Not sure.
- Beautiful gun
Why M&P45?
- Highly reliable, may be higher than a lower end same price 1911, out of the box
- Lower cost than a decent 1911
- state-of-the-art technologies in your hand
- Lighter
- Better grip
- Not picky about ammo
- Better recoil management
Rangel
Member
Re:
>>> Usually recommending a Philippine 1911 will get you flamed<<<
Well, some guys still feel that Philippines made guns often have softer metal than most other nation's guns and I can't argue yay or nay there. But I have spent quite a bit of time over there and while most of their guns are copies, most are actually pretty decent stuff.
That Rock Island 1911 45 ACP looked decent--trigger felt OK to me--the real wood grips were too smooth and felt more like plastic though, but for about $360--whadya want? Yea, some are sub par guns are built there--and most of them stay there as they export the better stuff. You can find lack luster stuff anywhere--you can buy Hi-Point **** that is made in ole Ohio, USA.
There was a time when a Filipino gun's metal was only as good as the leaf springs they melted down to make it, but there are enterprising gunsmiths there today who can make you a completely orginal, fine custom gun, based soley on your instructions. You want the upcoming 14 round, Star Wars looking Kel Tec 12 gauge (The KSG) shotgun now? --They can make you one.
Have you lads had a look at the '2011' named and stamped models (many with w/ double stack magazines) of the venerable old 1911?
Married a Filipina, mail order bride--only hard part was getting her in that Manila envelope.....
>>> Usually recommending a Philippine 1911 will get you flamed<<<
Well, some guys still feel that Philippines made guns often have softer metal than most other nation's guns and I can't argue yay or nay there. But I have spent quite a bit of time over there and while most of their guns are copies, most are actually pretty decent stuff.
That Rock Island 1911 45 ACP looked decent--trigger felt OK to me--the real wood grips were too smooth and felt more like plastic though, but for about $360--whadya want? Yea, some are sub par guns are built there--and most of them stay there as they export the better stuff. You can find lack luster stuff anywhere--you can buy Hi-Point **** that is made in ole Ohio, USA.
There was a time when a Filipino gun's metal was only as good as the leaf springs they melted down to make it, but there are enterprising gunsmiths there today who can make you a completely orginal, fine custom gun, based soley on your instructions. You want the upcoming 14 round, Star Wars looking Kel Tec 12 gauge (The KSG) shotgun now? --They can make you one.
Have you lads had a look at the '2011' named and stamped models (many with w/ double stack magazines) of the venerable old 1911?
Married a Filipina, mail order bride--only hard part was getting her in that Manila envelope.....
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