Making Screws for my Schofield

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,



Just as the title says, I want to replace some of the screws on my
2nd. issue Schofield.

Just so you know a little about my background, I have been machining
parts for a long time (over 40 years). I have been collecting information
(like Chicoine's books) but I still wish there was really good information
on the threads used in these 19th century firearms.

Most sources purport that threads were 60° Vee form but I do know
that some major manufacturers used other standards. Case in point,
the threads used by the Springfield Armory during the manufacture
of the "trapdoor" rifle were Whitworth type (55° with rounded crests
and roots). I found this out when removing a broken off bridle
screw in the lock plate on my 1884.

So, making replacement screws can be challenging especially when
the actual thread form isn't truly known.

I wish I had an optical comparator so I could look and measure
the threads on the old screws (angle, depth and any special treatment
of the root and crest of the threads).

So, has anyone made a study of the threads on these?

Cheers!
Webb

 

[gmborkovic]

Hello Mr. Webb, how many screws do you want to replace? and location.
Are they broken or suffer head/slot fatigue? Buggered.

 

[rct269]

I have a "Thread List- Smith & Wesson" circa "5-20-09". It provides Diameter, Pitch, and Tapping Size for 10 different models (newer than a Schofield), for what appears to be every screw (threaded item) in the particular model. I don't know what some of the models are (32 SAF., 38 SAF,) also for several models I at least think I recognize (32 D.A., 38 D.A., 44 D.A., Model M, Model I, Model K, (And it's likely these last three belong up there in the don't know list.) 44 H E, and 38 Per. It occurs to me (as a SWAG) the screws for a 44 D.A. just might be the same as those for a Schofield----simply because I can't think of a good reason why they shouldn't be.

So, if this information strikes your fancy, send a PM telling me name/address of where to send it------via snail mail.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, the several different pitches are 64, 48, 47, 60, 44, 40, 56, 32, 36, 55, and 35. I'll hazard a guess several of these are not standard.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There

Hello Mr. Webb, how many screws do you want to replace? and location.
Are they broken or suffer head/slot fatigue? Buggered.

Basically, all of the above (except broken). The rear cylinder retainer
screw is wrong (it is the just another front cylinder retainer screw.

Plus, this is the kind of project I like to do. I have the necessary
equipment to do this but I like to be armed with the best information
I can get. Most of the screws use commercially available thread
pitches and are close to the standard diameters. Most gunsmiths
use split dies but I have some geometric threading dies (5/16" size)
that use replaceable thread chasers and they have a fairly broad
adjustment range to conform to different diameters (within limits
of course). About the only one I may have to have custom made
is a set of chasers for 46 tpi. But I don't need that one just yet.

I was just checking the info pool to get all the info I can. Thanks
for all the help!

Cheers!
Webb

 

[mmaher94087]

S&W used proprietary thread sizes and pitches. Some approximate American Standard and some approximate Whitworth. Neither are spot on for these S&W screws. Here's a sample:

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

S&W used proprietary thread sizes and pitches. Some approximate American Standard and some approximate Whitworth. Neither are spot on for these S&W screws. Here's a sample:

Thanks for the Table/Chart. I have copied it and will put it in my S&W
folder.

I didn't mean to imply that S&W screws were all "standard" sizes.
If they were, I wouldn't have needed to post my questions.
What I was trying to say was that there are threading chasers
that have the correct thread pitch that I can use to make replacement
screws (although the actual profile may be slightly different).

This is case of "close enough" to be able to produce an acceptable
replacement. David Chicoine in his book Gunsmithing Guns of the
Old West imparts that the thread form used was a 60 degree Vee
form but I don't think it completely matches SAE or National Thread
standards.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[mmaher94087]

I will add that 'buggered' screws can be made to look presentable (as opposed to making a new one and finishing them) by supporting the screw head loosely in a vise and peining the upset metal of the slot back into place. This will preserve the original screw and finish.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I will add that 'buggered' screws can be made to look presentable (as opposed to making a new one and finishing them) by supporting the screw head loosely in a vise and peining the upset metal of the slot back into place. This will preserve the original screw and finish.

Yes, you are right that sometimes displaced metal can be
peened back to some degree and the original screw returned
to a more acceptable appearance but these screws are beyond
that point. They are severely buggered and some have their
slots filed with a 60° three-square file so that screwdriver
retention is near impossible while turning the screw without
extreme downward pressure.

Plus, this is my fun. I was asking for information so that I will
be able to make the best replacements I can.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[mmaher94087]

Webb, are before and after photos going to be available? This sounds like a very desirable endeavor and that others like me would love to see your final product. Also, once you get the screw threads figured out then others will probably ask to buy your screws. Anyone messing with antique S&W parts is hard to find.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Webb, are before and after photos going to be available? This sounds like a very desirable endeavor and that others like me would love to see your final product. Also, once you get the screw threads figured out then others will probably ask to buy your screws. Anyone messing with antique S&W parts is hard to find.

I hadn't thought about it until you brought it up. I guess I could
do that. I just have to remember to take the pics.

Don't expect to see anything for a week or more. I've got several
things going on here and I have to divide my time between them.
I'm teaching myself Bookbinding and I have to fix my son's Camaro
while I collect the materials for making replacement screws.
But keep an eye out.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Well, I haven't Made any screws yet but I am starting the preliminaries.
The first screw I plan to make will be the pivot joint screw. I have
included a couple pics of it below. From Chicoine's book "Gunsmithing
Guns of the Old West," 2nd. Ed. I have included a copy of the page
listing screw sizes for S&W #3 Revolvers (I've highlighted the entry
for the Pivot Joint Screw). From that I like to make a drawing of the
screw I want to make. I should start the machining in the next
few days. Stay Tuned.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I've made a slight change in plan. I am going to make the Hammer
Spring Tension Screw first. This is because the tooling came in and
the screw follows the standard for a #7 X 32 thread (+/- .002").

In the table in Chicoine's book, this screw is listed as being .420"
long but the screw I removed from mine was .435". I'd be curious
to know what other people's #3's tension screws measured.

Anyway, here are pics of the progress so far. I still have to round
the ends and cut the slot (when my slitting saw comes in).

Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I've cut 4 blanks for the tension screw and slotted one of them
to test in the gun. They came out rather good (I think). See
pics.

They still need polishing and I plan to plate a couple of them to
match this Schofield better.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[mmaher94087]

Nice! Looks so much better than the ugly, buggered screw.

 

[growr]

Members of this forum never cease to amaze me with skills, knowledge and abilities!!!

Randy

 

[Jay Hall]

Mr. Chicoine repaired the action on my first model Schofield some 30 years ago, he was very skilled, made the parts if he did not have them,,and was VERY expensive, but it was a great experience.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,



Well, it is time for an update on how screwy I've been.

I've been working on the Schofield cylinder retainer/latch screws.
and I wanted to show some of the progress I've made so far. The
screws are the front cylinder retainer/latch screws. The rear ones
are similar but the shaft is slightly larger in diameter and a portion
is cut away. The old screw in the cylinder latch/retainer is another
front screw (which will work for a rear screw and my Schofield was
using this screw for a rear screw).


Cheers!
Webb

 

[rwsmith]

Wow. Old proprietary.....

.... thread details for teeny-tiny screws. You guys are really something. Makes me proud to call myself a nerd.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Well, I have been working on making the rear Cylinder Retainer/
Latch Screw. This screw is somewhat unusual in that it is partially
cut away to allow the retainer pivot up slightly for cylinder removal.
After studying an original screw, I revised my drawing. The cutaway
area is not flat but has a radius to it. In order to replicate this, I
made a jig to hold the screw blank for turning the undercut section.
The first pic of the jig is the jig empty. The second is with the
screw blank ready for turning. The last one shows the screw turned.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

After de-burring and breaking of sharp edges, the screw is ready
for installation.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Schof45]

Looks perfect!

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Well, it has been a long time since I posted on this topic. I had
a lot of medical issues during the last year that seriously hampered
my work but the last few months I have had a reasonable turn-
around and I am getting back to the projects that had been left
wanting.

In particular, the screws that I needed to make for my badly ab-
used Schofield Second Issue. The last few days I had been
making the fixtures I needed to make the pivot screw for it.

Just to re-cap, here are some pics of the old screw.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Continuing with this monologue, here are the replacement
screws. I think they came out well. I made some extras
just in case. You can see the original in the upper part of
the last photo.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[shown50]

Sorry to hear about your health issues but I'm glad you've made a turnaround! Those screws came out awesome! I wish I had someone as talented as you closer to me so I could get a strain screw made for my 44 Double Action in 44 Russian.

 

[TomTownUSA]

Any Schofield screw machinests close to NE Ohio

Very interesting discussions, thanks. I have a 2nd model civilian that the hammer pin cap screw is missing or broken off, do not know. I did not attempt to remove the side plate to check the actual problem, did not want to make anything worse. I also have a working New Model 3 made in 1881 to act as an example pin to be copied if needed. Is there any of you expert machinist / gunsmith Schofield familiar experts within a few hundred miles that might like to take on the job of restoring my gem to original working order ?????? Any discussion would be appreciated.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Very interesting discussions, thanks. I have a 2nd model civilian that the hammer pin cap screw is missing or broken off, do not know. I did not attempt to remove the side plate to check the actual problem, did not want to make anything worse. I also have a working New Model 3 made in 1881 to act as an example pin to be copied if needed. Is there any of you expert machinist / gunsmith Schofield familiar experts within a few hundred miles that might like to take on the job of restoring my gem to original working order ?????? Any discussion would be appreciated.

I'm trying to understand which screw is the "hammer pin cap
screw." I assume you are referring to the screw in the center
of the side plate. If the screw has broken off in the hammer
stud, you should be able to remove the side plate without
harm to the revolver. This screw, missing or broken shouldn't
prevent the gun from working (so long as the hammer stud
isn't loose in the frame). Are there any other issues with this
revolver that prevent it from functioning?

One shouldn't pry off the side plate on any revolver. There is
a proper technique for removing side plates that uses inertia
to remove it. In case you are not familiar, the way is to re-
move the grips first and then, using a non-marring hammer
(or screwdriver handle will work) tap on the grip area of the
frame, on the same side as the side plate. The frame will be
moved downward but the inertia of the side plate will resist
moving and will work its way up and out of the frame. Presto!


Cheers!
Webb

 

[TomTownUSA]

Great job... I have a 2nd model Schofield with a hammer pivot screw/pin missing or broken off end or capping screw. I hesitate to remove the plate to see the exact problem and it's configuration. Since you own a 2nd model could you supply the exact configuration and dimensions of the complete pin and screw cap so I can have a local smith/machinist make a replacement. My gem is one of the 650 civilian models produced and I am so blessed to have found and to now own this wonderful piece of American old West history. It appears that I am the first collector to own this piece hence no earlier fix has ever been attempted. I currently only have drawn parts schematics to suggest its actual configuration. Thank you so much for your time and consideration, Tom

 

[iby]

Great job... I have a 2nd model Schofield with a hammer pivot screw/pin missing or broken off end or capping screw. I hesitate to remove the plate to see the exact problem and it's configuration. Since you own a 2nd model could you supply the exact configuration and dimensions of the complete pin and screw cap so I can have a local smith/machinist make a replacement. My gem is one of the 650 civilian models produced and I am so blessed to have found and to now own this wonderful piece of American old West history. It appears that I am the first collector to own this piece hence no earlier fix has ever been attempted. I currently only have drawn parts schematics to suggest its actual configuration. Thank you so much for your time and consideration, Tom

You should show us your "Gem"

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I don't know if you noticed my previous post but it was directed
towards you and your problem.

I removed the side plate screw from my Schofield 2nd Model
and I measured it. See Pic.

I don't want to remove the Hammer Stud because these can be
stubborn to remove and I don't want to damage anything. You
can take a piece of wire and measure how deep the threaded
hole is currently. Mine measures 1/2" from the top of the side
plate to the bottom of the threaded hammer stud hole.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Well I made the last screw I wanted to replace on my Schofield
2nd Model. This is for the barrel latch. Here are some pics of the
old screw and the new one I made.


Cheers!
Webb