Manual usefulness??
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Yes, they used real guns and most of the older Speer data was not pressure tested. They developed load data like an experienced handloader would develop loads.
This wouldn't make much difference to a knowledgeable and competent handloader, but for the inexperienced and/or someone who didn't read load manuals and got their handloading education from the Internet and YouTube maestros, they could get into serious trouble quickly.
My first manual in the mid-'60s was the then-new Speer #6. Even though data was not pressure tested, reading and understanding the front of the book and using a bit of caution was enough to keep a new handloader safe.
It doesn't matter which 'manual' You use. Each and every gun manufactured will shoot any given load differently. Different pressure signs, different velocity, and different accuracy. Your gun is unique. The 'manuals' only give safe loading data for a given bullet and powder charge and nothing more. With all the hungry Lawyers out there that data has changed significantly over the years. Once You start You should invest in a chronograph if velocity is important, as that is the only way to tell the true velocity of each load through Your gun.
Nemo288
Member
Another reason (all the above are good) for getting a chronograph (I have 3) is to be able to more accurately predict exterior ballistics.
This can reduce your sight-in time and allows one to pick an appropriate bullet.
I'll also say one cannot have too many loading manuals and books.
Once you digest all the info you can get a more rounded view of internal ballistics kinda like grokking the periodic table.
After you work extensively with a particular cartridge, you will get a "feel" for the effect of +/- a grain of powder, +/- .01" COAL, etc.
This can reduce your sight-in time and allows one to pick an appropriate bullet.
I'll also say one cannot have too many loading manuals and books.
Once you digest all the info you can get a more rounded view of internal ballistics kinda like grokking the periodic table.
After you work extensively with a particular cartridge, you will get a "feel" for the effect of +/- a grain of powder, +/- .01" COAL, etc.
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Mine was like a boat...great to buy...Even better when I sold it. The thing shot the factory 175 RN just great...compared to anything else. Pushed hard and they shot so-so. Don't know. May have been one of those bad barrels that Rugers was known for. The manuals of the past that used CUP for pressure readings were sometimes a little different than these days pressure readings.. Like the one(Speer) manual. The loads could be a bit exuberant. There was a cadre
Rogeronimo
Member
^THIS^
A sealed chamber/long barrel is a fine solution for determining the maximum pressure an assembly of components will produce. My opinion is that my results will be lower, both in pressure and velocity. If it's about keeping me safe, I'm ok with that.
Real guns for load testing? What a novel idea!
Right!
MY Speer # 13 and 14 manuals still use real guns, and despite differences in revolvers, etc., their figures are "ballpark" and in a safe neighborhood. Of course "extrapolation" is often used..."A 'little more' powder to make up for the extra space, when going from .38 Spl. to larger 357 Magnum brass." has been recommended since I have been reading reloading articles and manuals. Not really "scientific", but works, as has choosing a load somewhere between a hot .38 and 357 Magnum starting loads, which is useful if used in properly chambered guns.
Right!
MY Speer # 13 and 14 manuals still use real guns, and despite differences in revolvers, etc., their figures are "ballpark" and in a safe neighborhood. Of course "extrapolation" is often used..."A 'little more' powder to make up for the extra space, when going from .38 Spl. to larger 357 Magnum brass." has been recommended since I have been reading reloading articles and manuals. Not really "scientific", but works, as has choosing a load somewhere between a hot .38 and 357 Magnum starting loads, which is useful if used in properly chambered guns.
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Manuals are used for ballpark figures for some of us that have been handloading for many years. " Extrapolation" is the norm, along with chronographing, for deciding what loads we want to put together.
Nemo288
Member
Velocity: yes.
I would not be so sure about the pressure.
Modeling my slowest handgun powder IMR4227 in my largest handgun cartridge (44 supermag), the peak pressure is achieved in less than .5" of bullet travel.
Same bullet in 44 mag (240 Swift AF) using 2400, max pressure is at about .41" bullet travel.
Seating depth of that bullet is .413"
That means MaxP is happening before the bullet even leaves the cylinder of a revolver, maybe not even the brass itself.
Until the bullet leaves the cylinder, it basically is a (very short) closed barrel situation.
Something to think about.
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Alk8944
US Veteran
Loading data in any manual will only produce velocities in your guns that are approximately what the manual shows. If you want to load to a specific velocity level, and there is no reason to do this, then you need a chronograph.
Pick a book load then shoot it over your chronograph to see what it does in your gun. Then you can adjust the load to obtain the desired velocity, but do not exceed the listed maximum charge.
Why do you think you need a specific velocity, and how did you arrive at that figure? If you are looking for accuracy group size will dictate the right load, not some arbitrary velocity level.
What you say you are trying to do is one of the major indicators of an inexperienced reloader!
Pick a book load then shoot it over your chronograph to see what it does in your gun. Then you can adjust the load to obtain the desired velocity, but do not exceed the listed maximum charge.
Why do you think you need a specific velocity, and how did you arrive at that figure? If you are looking for accuracy group size will dictate the right load, not some arbitrary velocity level.
What you say you are trying to do is one of the major indicators of an inexperienced reloader!
Not sure who you are referring to in your post Alk but I have been handloading since 1966 so I decide what I want from a load. Part of my handloading enjoyment comes from chronographing a handload to see how close it came to the expected velocity. You presume to tell other people what their priorities should be in handloading. To each his own Alk.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
OP, so if your handgun doesn't meet your velocity expectations, do you just keep adding powder?
I believe RCBS Manual #9 had a great explanation why my 4 inch 19-3 did xxxx fps while my brother's 4 inch 19-3 did xyz fps. Then he tried a 6 inch 14-2 and only got xyx fps.
My tip for 38 Special is a 158 LSWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye powder. That is an accurate load in any 38 or 357 revolver regardless of velocity.
I believe RCBS Manual #9 had a great explanation why my 4 inch 19-3 did xxxx fps while my brother's 4 inch 19-3 did xyz fps. Then he tried a 6 inch 14-2 and only got xyx fps.
My tip for 38 Special is a 158 LSWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye powder. That is an accurate load in any 38 or 357 revolver regardless of velocity.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
So do you buy factory ammo, chronograph them and try to duplicate it with your handloads?
STORMINORMAN
Member
I'm kind'a surprised that "Who has a 10" anything?" actually made it past the censors...?
Oooopps! I meant "content modifiers"?
Cheers!
Oooopps! I meant "content modifiers"?
Cheers!
Nemo288
Member
I am not sure how many folks have a "10 inch record of their favorite blues" (Aerosmith).
Those were 78 RPM and I have only seen one in a museum.
The normal 78 was 12" like all our 33 RPM albums
I do however have a 12" .44 handgun so they are out there.
Those were 78 RPM and I have only seen one in a museum.
The normal 78 was 12" like all our 33 RPM albums
I do however have a 12" .44 handgun so they are out there.
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sick sick sick
Yes I have a 10 inch Contender.... It do shoot pretty high velocities in a handgun...But it is still a fair bit of a handful with heavy bullets at max. ...Fixed that!
