Measuring Flaky Powders
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Skip Sackett
US Veteran
HP-38 is a ball powder though, flattened ball, but ball nonetheless.
Nothing better than a relaxing reloading session listening to the annoying hum/buzz of a aquarium pump
Always good to have a 110 V electromagnet taped to your powder. Adds excitement!
Good grief, the things people think off.
Always good to have a 110 V electromagnet taped to your powder. Adds excitement!Good grief, the things people think off.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Re-read my post, I never said it was smart, I just said they were thinking! 
The method of weighing multiple charges is offered as a convienient way to see what your measure is actually doing, and as a guide for adjustment. It is preparatory only, and not an operation used in producing finished loads. That comes after the setting. Some seem to be missing that point. If you would rather weigh individual charges and adjust your measure on that basis, with a powder that throws individuals varying by .1 gr, .2 gr, or even more as some claim for Unique, go right ahead, have fun. Or weigh ten individual charges, then calculate the average. Is that more convenient than weighing a composite of ten consecutive charges? Similarly, if I needed to load 200 rounds using Unique, would I want to weigh every charge if good results could be obtained by a more convenient process, that is, one that avoids that tedious weighing?
Once the measuring device is set, of course it is realized that individual charges will still show variation, as they would with any powder. The further point of the post, supported with data, is that this variation may not be as serious with Unique as is generally supposed. Neumann is right on when he quotes an SD of .1 grain for a charge of 6.0 grains. That fits my experience, and does not urge me to avoid Unique as a "finicky-to-measure" powder. I reject the idea that eyeballing is worthless; when examining a row of five charged cases, four of them close to specs but one off by "a few tenths," let's say .3 grain in the extreme, and maybe less, I can see it. At least in .38 special or smaller cases.
My purpose in reporting the weights of five sets of 10 charges was to demonstrate the long-term stability that can be attained with this powder and measure combination, yes, still realizing that individual charges will vary somewhat. To that point of undesirable individual variation I offer the velocity results for the 20 rounds, not weighed or check-weighed during loading, which show a uniformity that compares well with other powders I have used, and is better than I have obtained with some powders generally considered easier to measure.
Smith Crazy, the weighing of multiple charges for the purpose stated above is NOT SILLY! And I take offense at the comment.
Once the measuring device is set, of course it is realized that individual charges will still show variation, as they would with any powder. The further point of the post, supported with data, is that this variation may not be as serious with Unique as is generally supposed. Neumann is right on when he quotes an SD of .1 grain for a charge of 6.0 grains. That fits my experience, and does not urge me to avoid Unique as a "finicky-to-measure" powder. I reject the idea that eyeballing is worthless; when examining a row of five charged cases, four of them close to specs but one off by "a few tenths," let's say .3 grain in the extreme, and maybe less, I can see it. At least in .38 special or smaller cases.
My purpose in reporting the weights of five sets of 10 charges was to demonstrate the long-term stability that can be attained with this powder and measure combination, yes, still realizing that individual charges will vary somewhat. To that point of undesirable individual variation I offer the velocity results for the 20 rounds, not weighed or check-weighed during loading, which show a uniformity that compares well with other powders I have used, and is better than I have obtained with some powders generally considered easier to measure.
Smith Crazy, the weighing of multiple charges for the purpose stated above is NOT SILLY! And I take offense at the comment.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Context McShooty, context friend.
Or, maybe it could be said better. I am sorry you are offended, that surely wasn't the intent. But, unless you are going to put all of those loads in a single case, as my continued statement says, or want to see consistency, there really isn't any point.
With the method I use, I can throw charges of flaky powders quite well. Usually -0gr to +.1gr. I just think that is a better "yard stick" to measure with. I don't weigh each charge, per se, you can't on a progressive, so, I get my powder measure to throw consistently, and I weigh those checks, one at a time.
I can do math in my head and realize that a throw of 4.2gr added to a 4.0gr full scale is 8.2gr and the next is 3.9gr and that is 12.1gr and another of 3.8gr is 15.9gr and another of 4.3 is 20.2gr, I understand that, really. Now, for others, a spread of .5gr may be acceptable, surely the average isn't that far off @ 4.04gr but for me, that is totally unacceptable.
Sorry that you were offended, Mc, again, that was not the goal. What was the goal is to show that it can be a poor way to make adjustments to a powder measure, and a poorer way to produce consistent ammo.
Silly was in reference to using this method, not an individual either. If I am making a machine to produce a product, I am not going to be satisfied if it takes up all of the tolerance on a sample of 10 parts either. I want each one to be as close to the mean as possible and if it doesn't do that, there is a problem that needs fixed. I set out to fix the problem.
Maximumbob54
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That's it, I'm breaking out the duct tape...
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
NO, NO, NO! Use wire ties! Then you won't have to clean off any of the sticky!
Let's set some parameters for the test though. Unique, 4.0gr, 20 charges, weigh each individually BEFORE application of "Powder Hopper Flake Powder Axillary Device" (aquarium pump) and record. Test another 20 charges but weigh as a whole, or as a unit and record.
THEN, implement the MIGHTY "Powder Hopper Flake Powder Axillary Device" (aquarium pump) and repeat the same tests as above recording results.
Post report!
In light of the possibility that you may not have wire ties, those plastic things that are like ratchet straps only smaller, use the kid's shoe strings, just not from their favorite pair!
(Substitute wife's shoe strings if kids are out of the house)
Maximumbob54
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NO, NO, NO! Use wire ties! Then you won't have to clean off any of the sticky!
Let's set some parameters for the test though. Unique, 4.0gr, 20 charges, weigh each individually BEFORE application of "Powder Hopper Flake Powder Axillary Device" (aquarium pump) and record. Test another 20 charges but weigh as a whole, or as a unit and record.
THEN, implement the MIGHTY "Powder Hopper Flake Powder Axillary Device" (aquarium pump) and repeat the same tests as above recording results.
Post report!
In light of the possibility that you may not have wire ties, those plastic things that are like ratchet straps only smaller, use the kid's shoe strings, just not from their favorite pair!
(Substitute wife's shoe strings if kids are out of the house)
I have an old ten gallon aquarium pump if I can find it. I will use blue painters tape since I want to make sure it holds and doesn't just slip down each time.
Now I know why I was keeping that darn bottle of Unique...
And just to note the electrical safety bit: It's a sealed unit made safe to work around water. Flipping the light switch will make a worse spark.
I have an old ten gallon aquarium pump if I can find it. I will use blue painters tape since I want to make sure it holds and doesn't just slip down each time.
Now I know why I was keeping that darn bottle of Unique...
And just to note the electrical safety bit: It's a sealed unit made safe to work around water. Flipping the light switch will make a worse spark.
Wrongo buddy
I have kept fish almost all my life. Fresh and Marine with major plumbing and pumps.Diaphragm pumps are not made to be "around" water, They are not sealed water tight. Not saying it will spark on you but the destructions will say to locate above (siphon) and away from water if a GFI.
Regardless the sound will drive you insane.
Anyway, back to the OP's original thread.
Yes, using the method he describes (there are several videos online which show this method) is a way to set or calibrate a powder measure for a initial setting rather than weigh, say 10 individual throws.
But with a powder like Unique there still will be more variance in each individual case than with a finer powder. There is no changing that.
Maximumbob54
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Doesn't matter either way since I can't find the thing. Or that it was indeed a sealed unit... Or at least I hope so since it was submerged in the tank for most of its life... I may go buy a cheapie Top Fin brand one at Petsmart. But that would not be nearly as good and that one is crazy noisy. That has now become a weekend project.
And I thought we were still on the thread as far as discussing how to "Measure Flaky Powders"...? I was going to enlist the assistance of the Ideal #55 with some blue tape slapped on it and start flipping the clacker...
Realistically, I would still rather be working on my powder trickler mounted on a board alongside the beam scale project. I know there has to be something to that. Its just a matter of setting everything up just right and coming up with a faster way of twisting the trickler's arm. I keep thinking of something like the swing arm on an old pencil sharpener.
And I thought we were still on the thread as far as discussing how to "Measure Flaky Powders"...? I was going to enlist the assistance of the Ideal #55 with some blue tape slapped on it and start flipping the clacker...
Realistically, I would still rather be working on my powder trickler mounted on a board alongside the beam scale project. I know there has to be something to that. Its just a matter of setting everything up just right and coming up with a faster way of twisting the trickler's arm. I keep thinking of something like the swing arm on an old pencil sharpener.
Well than we a talking different kinds of pumps. Either way it has to be the lamest idea I have heard in a long time. No offense to anyone who actually uses it. Once again I would need to see some definitive proof.
It goes right up there with tumbling loose primers.
(not ammo) but if you use a different case lube there is no need for that either. But hey, I am still amazed about the past (way back) post on guys that wash their corn and walnut media.
It goes right up there with tumbling loose primers.
(not ammo) but if you use a different case lube there is no need for that either. But hey, I am still amazed about the past (way back) post on guys that wash their corn and walnut media.
Maximumbob54
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Well than we a talking different kinds of pumps. Either way it has to be the lamest idea I have heard in a long time. No offense to anyone who actually uses it. Once again I would need to see some definitive proof.
It goes right up there with tumbling loose primers.
We really should meet up someday for drinks. You describe a lot of the crazy stuff that I have either done, thought about doing, or currently do.
Paul5388
US Veteran
Have you ever tried to set off any smokeless powder with a spark? How about black powder? Check here and you'll see why it's a non issue. Static Electricity and Black Powder
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Too funny boys!
Hey, Bob, with the Lyman #55 you don't need to do anything special to throw good charges with Unique or any other hard to meter powder. It is all in the setup.
What is the "supposed" problem with Unique? It bridges the cavity, right? Right. So, to keep it from bridging in the Lyman #55 it is VERY simple to do. Instead of opening the deep or deepest cavity and throwing charges, only use the uppermost slide. In order to get 10 grains, you may have to slide that slide most of the way to the outside but, the cavity becomes very wide and shallow. Unique will not bridge that big of a gap.
Also, run the knocker with the handle up, twice, run the knocker when the handle is at the bottom, twice.
If it is done in this manner, I have had Unique meter like a champ. Even my surplus Unique, which by the way, is what was in my 45 Colt loads that went hedge apple destroying today. 45-270SAA bullet (boolit for those that are in the know) with the small hollow point, over 9gr of Unique. The Ruger Blackhawk was death on them out to 50 yards as well as the Puma M92. The more I shoot that thing, the more I like it.
Do you know what a hedge apple looks like? Osage Orange?
Here is a 158gr XTP @ 2000fps taking care of one:
(Click to watch)
Great fun!
Hey, Bob, with the Lyman #55 you don't need to do anything special to throw good charges with Unique or any other hard to meter powder. It is all in the setup.
What is the "supposed" problem with Unique? It bridges the cavity, right? Right. So, to keep it from bridging in the Lyman #55 it is VERY simple to do. Instead of opening the deep or deepest cavity and throwing charges, only use the uppermost slide. In order to get 10 grains, you may have to slide that slide most of the way to the outside but, the cavity becomes very wide and shallow. Unique will not bridge that big of a gap.
Also, run the knocker with the handle up, twice, run the knocker when the handle is at the bottom, twice.
If it is done in this manner, I have had Unique meter like a champ. Even my surplus Unique, which by the way, is what was in my 45 Colt loads that went hedge apple destroying today. 45-270SAA bullet (boolit for those that are in the know) with the small hollow point, over 9gr of Unique. The Ruger Blackhawk was death on them out to 50 yards as well as the Puma M92. The more I shoot that thing, the more I like it.
Do you know what a hedge apple looks like? Osage Orange?
Here is a 158gr XTP @ 2000fps taking care of one:
(Click to watch)
Great fun!
Paul5388
US Veteran
Locally, we call 'em Bois d'arc.
I used some Unique yesterday, but I weighed every charge. 1.7 gr with a 50 gr Lyman 252435 seemed like a little much to expect good results from a powder measure. Besides I only had 7 pieces of brass, so a dipper and scale worked just fine.
I used some Unique yesterday, but I weighed every charge. 1.7 gr with a 50 gr Lyman 252435 seemed like a little much to expect good results from a powder measure. Besides I only had 7 pieces of brass, so a dipper and scale worked just fine.
5906fan
Member
Red Dot
have'nt had any luck with Lee dispenser with this one. can't get consistency. I'm useing load-thru xpander die anyway so I use dippers for it. good cast slug powder. low flash too - most flake powders are.
have'nt had any luck with Lee dispenser with this one. can't get consistency. I'm useing load-thru xpander die anyway so I use dippers for it. good cast slug powder. low flash too - most flake powders are.
Using an average weight of a number of throws as a guide to adjust your measure is not a poor way to proceed with measure setting. It is rather a very good way to determine what your measure is doing with the powder at hand. Also, it has nothing to do with the subsequent uniformity of thrown charges, which is a function of the powder grain shape, density, the geometry of the measure, and probably your technique in filling and operating the measure. I, also, would never be satisfied with .5 grain variation, but that does not happen. The velocity uniformity shows that. Again, I simply use the composite weights as an aid in setting the measure. Good measuring technique does the rest in the actual loading process.
Forget the pump. I have an old Evinrude two-stroke outboard which I would let go cheap to anyone who wants to tape it to his measure or his Dillon progessive. I used to have an Allis-Chalmers with one bad cylinder which I would gladly offer, but, sorry Smith Crazy, I disposed of it before I realized how useful it would be in reloading operations. Golly, I can just see a Dillon sitting on the engine block while it is hitting on three. That ought to settle the old powder down, but it would be a bit of a stretch to reach the lever from the seat.
Forget the pump. I have an old Evinrude two-stroke outboard which I would let go cheap to anyone who wants to tape it to his measure or his Dillon progessive. I used to have an Allis-Chalmers with one bad cylinder which I would gladly offer, but, sorry Smith Crazy, I disposed of it before I realized how useful it would be in reloading operations. Golly, I can just see a Dillon sitting on the engine block while it is hitting on three. That ought to settle the old powder down, but it would be a bit of a stretch to reach the lever from the seat.
My fish tank pumps do not run off static electricity.
Besides it's the Amps that get you.
Sorry McShooty we seem to have hijacked and messed up your thread. My apologies.
Paul5388
US Veteran
Granted, they don't run off of static electricity, but any sparks generated still aren't going to do anything to the powder or yourself. So, what's the concern? The pump mounted on the plastic hopper is a viable way to circumvent the propensity of Unique to bridge and it's safe.
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