I wonder if anyone in the aftermarket has considered an alloy upper? I'm sure it would really improve the accuracy, and I would think if reasonably priced they would sell like hot cakes. Perhaps a dust cover and even a forward assist could be included to better duplicate the ar experience for training purposes.
Metal upper
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Brett248Vista
Member
I plan on adding a CNC Mill to my garage within the next few months.. Might have to
tool up and make an alloy upper
Problem is, I'm sure no one would be willing to pay
what a CNC Billet T6061 upper would cost..
tool up and make an alloy upper
Problem is, I'm sure no one would be willing to paywhat a CNC Billet T6061 upper would cost..
ChattanoogaPhil
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A forward assist on a rimfire... now there's an idea!
Ya know... The 1522 was plagued with OOB issues their first year in production. My guess is that they probably aren't going to start manufacturing an OOB assist button.
Ya know... The 1522 was plagued with OOB issues their first year in production. My guess is that they probably aren't going to start manufacturing an OOB assist button.
Brett248Vista
Member
OOB Assist... LOL!
Well I personally have never had to use the forward assist on any of my ars, probably because I keep my weapons clean and have never had to use my rifles as part of my occupation. What I do know is whether we use them it not, they are more desirable on the open market as judged by price and snide remarks by forum trolls. This hypothetical product I've brought up, would most certainly also be more desirable with one, judging by the amount of guys willing to double side tape and glue dust cover doors to their composite uppers. One offs would certainly be expensive, but if the market was there economy of scale would help some. It was just a hypothetical, and the gun would be about perfect in my opinion with a metal upper. I like my guns to be more accurate than me.
RedNeck Jim
Member
Sorry, but I see no market for such a product, but just my opinion. The 15-22 already fits a market... one for a cheap, affordable to shoot, AR clone. To me it is a great trainer, as is. I don't need mine to be any more accurate than this gun already is.
If I want more accuracy for a 22lr, I switch to my CZ bolt action. But since 99% of the time I simply want to have fun (sounds like a song), then IMO, the 15-22 is perfect... as is.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Exactly. And for those who want a metal upper on a dedicated .22 with a dust cover and a fake forward assist thingy to play with, the Colt Umarex is available. I guess they are still producing them... but never see one at the club.
everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect yours. That's what makes America great. The gsg 522 is a good example of how people will willingly swap a lot of parts, even made by the manufacturer gsg. I have a gsg stg44 and it'll shoot the 15-22 under the table. Not knocking it, I love my 15-22, and ARs in general, but that's the facts. A metal upper would also make it more rigid for swapping full floating forearms using tacticool22's kit.
RedNeck Jim
Member
I'll give you a better example of how people are willing to swap parts... the 15-22.
I don't think too many folks around here shoot their "stock" gun. We pretty much all accessorize to various degrees of insanity. Sure we start with good intentions, to make this trainer simulate big brother better, but I know I'm not alone in having extra cool stuff for my Barbie... I mean 15-22.
So yes, there is a market for after market accessories. My opinion is that few really need their 15-22 to be a bit more accurate. Reason being, we aren't in Afghanistan and just don't need it for plinking. This gun was designed to be a plinker & IMO, the designer did a great job. I don't see a polymer upper as a negative... for a 22lr plinker. However, as I said, for those needing extreme accuracy, there are better gun choices... along with better caliber choices.
RedNeck Jim
Member
One more comment regarding the accuracy of the 15-22. This gun is 3 MOA, which doesn't sound all that great, and for a long range, sniper rifle, that would suck. However, from my experience and from what I read here, I think it safe to say, most around here shoot at say 30 yards, on average... but that is a guess. With that, this inaccurate plinker can hold around 1" groups (mine shoots a bit tighter).
My point is, shooting free style (no brace), at this distance, my 15-22 is more accurate than this shooter. I would bet the gun is more accurate than most shooters here... based upon shooting at normal ranges without support. That is why I say there is little need to improve the accuracy of the gun. I know I wouldn't see any improvement in my shooting scores & doubt many would... once again based upon the normal way the gun is used.
My point is, shooting free style (no brace), at this distance, my 15-22 is more accurate than this shooter. I would bet the gun is more accurate than most shooters here... based upon shooting at normal ranges without support. That is why I say there is little need to improve the accuracy of the gun. I know I wouldn't see any improvement in my shooting scores & doubt many would... once again based upon the normal way the gun is used.
Revgilliam
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A forward assist on a 15-22?
I'm not as salty as most but I've never even used the forward assist on my AR's...
I'm not as salty as most but I've never even used the forward assist on my AR's...
I love squirrel hunting, and I take a lot of shots with my Scoped Marlin 60 and 10-22 that I wouldn't take with this gun. That's a practical use. I'm not a basement commando or anything, I'm just a regular hunter and plinker. If you look at this forum for 5 mins you'll see all sorts of nonsense people put on their guns that do nothing but look cool and total way more than say $200 total, heck I have one of Jody's shrouds "for the look" of it. Imagine $200 that actually improved the gun's accuracy. We're clearly going to agree to disagree on this Jim, but I can brace against a tree and bust a squirrel in the head at 50yds all day with confidence with my 10/22, not so with the 15-22, so it rarely leaves the plinking range. Heck, if you could give me a .5-1" group at 50yds I may sell my 10/22, but I doubt it.
Brett248Vista
Member
We as Civies want the "Military" features on our AR's but honestly a feature
like the FA should NEVER be used in a non combat situation. The only reason
the FA exists is to force a round into the chamber, the only reason one should
ever do that, is if one is in a war zone and has a choice between death and
taking the chance that it won't explode.
In our day to day lives we take care of our rifles, we clean them, we shoot
decent enough ammo, that there is never a reason to drive a round into
battery. If it doesn't chamber, it goes in the garbage!
RedNeck Jim
Member
No problem. I'm of German heritage & disagree with everyone.
I'm a redneck & just can't think of why I would ever want to squirrel hunt with a 25 round, AR wannabe. I'll take my CZ 455 Varmint, with Leupold Mark IV scope and 22Sparrow suppressor. Now that is a small game hunting rifle!
Curious however. Since you have both a 15-22 & 10-22, what is the difference in groups at 50 yards? For reference, my CZ is a sub MOA shooter, which means at 50 yards it shoots less than 1/2". That is locked down on a rest... not free hand.
I'm German too, that must be the problem here! I have built up my 10/22, match chamber bull barrel, pedestal bedded stock, volquartsen trigger. It is also sub MOA, really impressive in calm conditions. It was no slouch in stock carbine form, I just like to tinker and parts are so readily available. I'm going to do another one as a M1 Carbine replica one day. You don't hear much love for Marlin 60s, and I've never quite been sure why. Mine has always been exceptionally accurate, and very rarely has a hiccup. It is 25yrs old and was my first gun.
Brett248Vista
Member
My Marlin 60 was a great rifle I just can't do the whole "wood stock" thing.. too pretty
to use... So I sold it
to use... So I sold it
RedNeck Jim
Member
I have one and after a few uses, put it on a shelf in the closet. IMO, it is a piece of ****. I went from a conversion for my AR to the 15-22.
Majorlk
Member
We've had a couple of shooters show up with them at my club's range. I've shot a few rounds through both and they are essentially junk. Both shooters admitted they preferred a 15-22 but couldn't find anyone that would buy the colts except at a huge loss.
robkarrob
Member
I doubt anyone would find a milled/forged metal upper and or lower, would make the 15/22 more accurate. Assuming there was no looseness between the barrel and the upper, metal or polymer would both have the same accuracy. Once the cartridge is fired, the bullet is going to travel the direction that the barrel is aimed. If after firing, there is flex between the barrel and upper, it would not change the direction of the bullet, as it has exited the barrel. If the sights/optics were aligned to POI, the bullet will hit that POA. As long as there is no flex during aiming, the bullet will travel to the POA.
I am sure there is some measurable flex, with the polymer upper and lower. But with the low recoil of the .22 cal, the flex would be minimal. Since that flex occurs after the bullet has exited the barrel, it would not change the bullet's POI, and reducing the flex with more rigid components would not make the 15/22 more accurate. Where accuracy could be compromised would be if the flex did not return to the original point. That would then change the POI.
I would bet the barrels on the 15/22s' do not get very high quality machining. Maybe one in 10 barrels come out good, and would allow for much better accuracy. But the majority of barrels come out with average machining, and this cause the less than stellar accuracy. We didn't buy a target bullseye rifle, but hoped for a little better accuracy.
Bob
I am sure there is some measurable flex, with the polymer upper and lower. But with the low recoil of the .22 cal, the flex would be minimal. Since that flex occurs after the bullet has exited the barrel, it would not change the bullet's POI, and reducing the flex with more rigid components would not make the 15/22 more accurate. Where accuracy could be compromised would be if the flex did not return to the original point. That would then change the POI.
I would bet the barrels on the 15/22s' do not get very high quality machining. Maybe one in 10 barrels come out good, and would allow for much better accuracy. But the majority of barrels come out with average machining, and this cause the less than stellar accuracy. We didn't buy a target bullseye rifle, but hoped for a little better accuracy.
Bob
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Vinney47
Member
This. Would it not be cheaper to buy a lower and mate it to a .22lr dedicated upper than buy a 15-22 and then a metal upper for it? Plus you get you FA/dust cover, and all else is mil spec if that's what you are after...
As far as magazines go, 15-22 factory mags are the best and there are adapters for them for true AR lowers (for use with a .22 bolt/upper)
Hmmmmm... 24 replies, and no one has yet addressed the O.P.'s suggestion regarding putting a forward assist on a rimfire cartridge firearm. Why might doing so not be the wisest engineering decision of the century?
I'd like to see more accurizing accessories for the 15-22 as well. Better barrels and better uppers would be nice. Or at least it would be nice if the options were there. The aftermarket for the 10/22 is huge, and they can be made very accurate. I'm not sure that AR-15 .22 upper kits have gotten that good, but maybe a dedicated platform like the 15-22 would be a place to build from. They are shooting 600 yard matches with AR-15s now, so a reasonably accurate .22 version could be nice.
First thing I'd like to see is more interest in better aftermarket barrels for the 15-22, but it might require a solid upper to get the best out of them.
One thing I think would be cool on an upper with a forward assist is if you could hold the assist to stop the bolt from cycling...particularly good for shooting suppressed shots and manually cycling the action...essentially making it a straight pull bolt action when you want it. The same thing can be done with full size ARs by blocking the gas port in the barrel, but on a blowback operated 15-22, just holding the assist should be enough.
First thing I'd like to see is more interest in better aftermarket barrels for the 15-22, but it might require a solid upper to get the best out of them.
One thing I think would be cool on an upper with a forward assist is if you could hold the assist to stop the bolt from cycling...particularly good for shooting suppressed shots and manually cycling the action...essentially making it a straight pull bolt action when you want it. The same thing can be done with full size ARs by blocking the gas port in the barrel, but on a blowback operated 15-22, just holding the assist should be enough.
Kayback
Member
Another person I know called the Forward Assist on a centerfire rifle the "instantly make the problem infinitely worse button". I tend to agree with him.
There is little to no need for a FA on most rifles and ZERO need for them on a rim fire gun.
There is little to no need for a FA on most rifles and ZERO need for them on a rim fire gun.
There is a reason the Umarex Colt's forward assist is fake. A forward assist on a Rimfire would just be a second means of firing the chambered round.
The Umarex Colt is probably the most accurate rendition of the AR, but it's a garbage weapon. All looks, no functionality. Also, none of the other AR look-alikes, like the 15-22, (Bushmaster, Umarex, etc.) can utilize actual AR hardware and furniture like the 15-22. S&W did an amazing job at recreating the AR experience with their design. They also removed the items they believed to be useless, like the dust cover and forward assist. Could they have left it in the design? Sure... but all it would be is something that could get broken that they would have to fix, or added weight, or a big one... added cost. Granted we all spend hundreds (if not thousands in some cases) of dollars outfitting our 15-22's.
The .22lr round was never meant to be used for long distance precision or tactical target elimination. Even with new barrels, an alloy upper, etc. I don't see some amazing increase in accuracy for the weapon.
The demand for a more accurately designed .22lr AR-15 in APPEARANCE only is because some shooters enjoy making their weapon indistinguishable from an actual AR. Why? I'm not 100% sure... I would assume these are the same guys I see at the range in full tactical gear that are about 100lbs overweight. Meaning... they try to look the part, but it just doesn't work. Much like a .22lr that replicates an AR 100%.
Like anything, it's a matter of "I want it because I want it". Personal preference. It serves no purpose other than to satisfy the need of the shooter to give an appearance of firing a real weapon and not just a recreational firearm.
If you want to spend that kind of money for an AR that fires .22lr ammo, then buy a real AR-15 and a .22lr conversion kit. Or a .22lr upper and put it on a real AR lower.
For that matter, you could do what Umarex did yourself... go buy an Airsoft AR-15 and shave off the fake forward assist and dust cover... then epoxy it to the M&P. I'm sure some could waste the time to fashion one that just superglues on, like I've seen the dust cover that was created by members here.
The bottom line is... in reality, I am not knocking the ingenuity of the members here. On the contrary, I've seen some great ideas and solutions come from the posts on this forum. I mean, almost every picture I've seen in threads here, everyone has some useless equipment or unnecessary equipment on their 15-22. We all (including myself) attempt to make our weapon emulate the AR platform. If we didn't, we wouldn't have chosen the 15-22. In reality, there's really no need for a forward vertical grip on a weapon with little to no recoil... There's no need for tactical BUIS or a muzzle break that gives the appearance of a suppressor... Or in some cases, optics that are designed for CQB, or distances that surpass the ballistics of the weapon or the projectile. Unless there are a rash of Zombie Squirrels in the trees around your home that just HAVE to be eliminated immediately with a $15,000 night vision optic on a $600 weapon. But it is awesome to see that on the rifle! We're creatures of "upgrades"... just look as some of the vehicles on the road today and you can see that! Everyone want's to make their unique mark on their "stuff". It's just what we do.
We do it because it's fun and entertaining and to be the one to get that "Hey, your 15-22 looks awesome!". It's the same in the AR community on other forums. It will always be that way as long as we are still free to do as we please (in most states).
I say If you want a forward assist and dust cover... do what you can do to make or fashion one for the weapon. I think that's the beauty of this weapon... there are ways to modify it beyond most's capabilities.
On another note, if you truly believe non-functioning aesthetic devices on your weapon help you train for use with your actual AR, then I say go for it. I am a firm believer in you can never have too much training. However, if that is your goal... Then I would definitely recommend just converting your AR platform to fire .22lr ammunition. You won't have the accuracy, firing a .22lr from a .223 barrel, but you would definitely have the realism.
If your goal is accuracy... you've already got about as good as you're going to get with the 15-22 at 50 to 100 yards.
I absolutely love my 15-22... and again, I do outfit my M&P to imitate my AR-15, but I am not going to put a $1200 quad rail or a $3,000 optic on it either. (Well, maybe for a photo here or there).
So... I'm sure if the demand calls for it, someone (like a member did with the dust cover) will create a snap-on version for those who would like double takes at the range. I usually get them more-so with my converted AR-15 than with the 15-22 though.
Oh, and like all great communities, you guys are innovative as hell!!! Some of the designs and modifications I've seen here are just incredible. Also, the knowledge base of users on literally every individual part of this weapon is staggering!!! lol... you guys are great!
Enjoy!
The Umarex Colt is probably the most accurate rendition of the AR, but it's a garbage weapon. All looks, no functionality. Also, none of the other AR look-alikes, like the 15-22, (Bushmaster, Umarex, etc.) can utilize actual AR hardware and furniture like the 15-22. S&W did an amazing job at recreating the AR experience with their design. They also removed the items they believed to be useless, like the dust cover and forward assist. Could they have left it in the design? Sure... but all it would be is something that could get broken that they would have to fix, or added weight, or a big one... added cost. Granted we all spend hundreds (if not thousands in some cases) of dollars outfitting our 15-22's.
The .22lr round was never meant to be used for long distance precision or tactical target elimination. Even with new barrels, an alloy upper, etc. I don't see some amazing increase in accuracy for the weapon.
The demand for a more accurately designed .22lr AR-15 in APPEARANCE only is because some shooters enjoy making their weapon indistinguishable from an actual AR. Why? I'm not 100% sure... I would assume these are the same guys I see at the range in full tactical gear that are about 100lbs overweight. Meaning... they try to look the part, but it just doesn't work. Much like a .22lr that replicates an AR 100%.
Like anything, it's a matter of "I want it because I want it". Personal preference. It serves no purpose other than to satisfy the need of the shooter to give an appearance of firing a real weapon and not just a recreational firearm.
If you want to spend that kind of money for an AR that fires .22lr ammo, then buy a real AR-15 and a .22lr conversion kit. Or a .22lr upper and put it on a real AR lower.
For that matter, you could do what Umarex did yourself... go buy an Airsoft AR-15 and shave off the fake forward assist and dust cover... then epoxy it to the M&P. I'm sure some could waste the time to fashion one that just superglues on, like I've seen the dust cover that was created by members here.
The bottom line is... in reality, I am not knocking the ingenuity of the members here. On the contrary, I've seen some great ideas and solutions come from the posts on this forum. I mean, almost every picture I've seen in threads here, everyone has some useless equipment or unnecessary equipment on their 15-22. We all (including myself) attempt to make our weapon emulate the AR platform. If we didn't, we wouldn't have chosen the 15-22. In reality, there's really no need for a forward vertical grip on a weapon with little to no recoil... There's no need for tactical BUIS or a muzzle break that gives the appearance of a suppressor... Or in some cases, optics that are designed for CQB, or distances that surpass the ballistics of the weapon or the projectile. Unless there are a rash of Zombie Squirrels in the trees around your home that just HAVE to be eliminated immediately with a $15,000 night vision optic on a $600 weapon. But it is awesome to see that on the rifle! We're creatures of "upgrades"... just look as some of the vehicles on the road today and you can see that! Everyone want's to make their unique mark on their "stuff". It's just what we do.
We do it because it's fun and entertaining and to be the one to get that "Hey, your 15-22 looks awesome!". It's the same in the AR community on other forums. It will always be that way as long as we are still free to do as we please (in most states).
I say If you want a forward assist and dust cover... do what you can do to make or fashion one for the weapon. I think that's the beauty of this weapon... there are ways to modify it beyond most's capabilities.
On another note, if you truly believe non-functioning aesthetic devices on your weapon help you train for use with your actual AR, then I say go for it. I am a firm believer in you can never have too much training. However, if that is your goal... Then I would definitely recommend just converting your AR platform to fire .22lr ammunition. You won't have the accuracy, firing a .22lr from a .223 barrel, but you would definitely have the realism.
If your goal is accuracy... you've already got about as good as you're going to get with the 15-22 at 50 to 100 yards.
I absolutely love my 15-22... and again, I do outfit my M&P to imitate my AR-15, but I am not going to put a $1200 quad rail or a $3,000 optic on it either. (Well, maybe for a photo here or there).
So... I'm sure if the demand calls for it, someone (like a member did with the dust cover) will create a snap-on version for those who would like double takes at the range. I usually get them more-so with my converted AR-15 than with the 15-22 though.
Oh, and like all great communities, you guys are innovative as hell!!! Some of the designs and modifications I've seen here are just incredible. Also, the knowledge base of users on literally every individual part of this weapon is staggering!!! lol... you guys are great!
Enjoy!
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I could give two kicks about the FA, that was a bit of an afterthought of my OP, but if an alloy upper could improve the accuracy to say even a stock 10/22 then I'd be up for that. This weapon isn't cheap, I'd like to see better accuracy for the money.
If indeed an alloy upper would improve accuracy. The polymer frame of the 15-22 doesn't give enough from the blowback of a .22lr projectile to even make a difference in accuracy, if it does at all.
Now... competition shooting and improving long distance accuracy is another story. I think the cost of an all-alloy upper would destroy the value of the weapon. I find the weapon accurate out to between 25 to 50 yards. Beyond that, it's a crapshoot that you can compensate for by using some higher quality ammo types. Like CCI Tactical AR.
This weapon was created for enthusiasts. It was designed to emulate the AR-15 for a reason. It's not a hunting or competition firearm. The price reflects this also. That's why a stock, base model 15-22 is only upwards of $400 in some areas. Once you move up to the Kick-Brass Magpul edition, it jumps up to $600+. Not because the quality of the weapon changed, but because you have a bunch of "extras" added on.
If you're looking for accuracy while maintaining an AR platform... I would still have to recommend selling your 15-22 and getting a dedicated .22lr upper for an AR lower (if you have one). I definitely wouldn't recommend a conversion kit if you want accuracy. Firing a .22lr projectile through a .223 barrel wouldn't be the most accurate and you'd probably decrease your effective range because of gas expulsion in the larger barrel.
Like this one...
Upper Receiver, Complete .22LR 16" SS Action : CMMG AR-15/M16 COMPLETE UPPER RECEIVER, 22LR SS ACTION | Brownells
They are just as much, if not more, in cost as the 15-22... but would give you an all alloy, true AR-style .22lr. Including Forward assist and Dust cover!
But again, unless there's a specific need for an accuracy increase beyond 50 yards (my 15-22 is extremely accurate with the right ammo at 50 yards), I don't know if the additional $600+ would be worth it if you already own a 15-22... unless you plan on selling it to recoup some of the expense. Chances are you wouldn't fire the 15-22 again.
Now... competition shooting and improving long distance accuracy is another story. I think the cost of an all-alloy upper would destroy the value of the weapon. I find the weapon accurate out to between 25 to 50 yards. Beyond that, it's a crapshoot that you can compensate for by using some higher quality ammo types. Like CCI Tactical AR.
This weapon was created for enthusiasts. It was designed to emulate the AR-15 for a reason. It's not a hunting or competition firearm. The price reflects this also. That's why a stock, base model 15-22 is only upwards of $400 in some areas. Once you move up to the Kick-Brass Magpul edition, it jumps up to $600+. Not because the quality of the weapon changed, but because you have a bunch of "extras" added on.
If you're looking for accuracy while maintaining an AR platform... I would still have to recommend selling your 15-22 and getting a dedicated .22lr upper for an AR lower (if you have one). I definitely wouldn't recommend a conversion kit if you want accuracy. Firing a .22lr projectile through a .223 barrel wouldn't be the most accurate and you'd probably decrease your effective range because of gas expulsion in the larger barrel.
Like this one...
Upper Receiver, Complete .22LR 16" SS Action : CMMG AR-15/M16 COMPLETE UPPER RECEIVER, 22LR SS ACTION | Brownells
They are just as much, if not more, in cost as the 15-22... but would give you an all alloy, true AR-style .22lr. Including Forward assist and Dust cover!
But again, unless there's a specific need for an accuracy increase beyond 50 yards (my 15-22 is extremely accurate with the right ammo at 50 yards), I don't know if the additional $600+ would be worth it if you already own a 15-22... unless you plan on selling it to recoup some of the expense. Chances are you wouldn't fire the 15-22 again.
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