Mil-spec vs Non Mil-spec

Thanks for the input. I just picked up the S&W M&P15-Sport. Looks like a great rifle. I'll get it to the range tomorrow.
I would recommend giving it a cleaning before hand just to make sure there isnt any of the shipping grease in it. Congrats you'll like it or anyway I believe you will. But be prepared now that you own one you will want to modify it, we call it the EBR (evil black rifle) disease. LOL Sometimes it will cause you to spend more on accessories than you did on the rifle :D
 
Thanks, already cleaned it and removed some black grease from the bolt and chamber area. Bore was heavily oiled. A light wipe down with some CLP and should be ready to go.
 
Make sure your weapon is mil-spec when to go to DEFCON5 or the specwar guys might not let you in the game-then you might have to go with NAPA or even LS/MFT if the AFL/CIO doesn't get there first. Then it's a charlie foxtrot when the SHTF. If that happens you're SOL and you're left wondering WWJD.
I can't tell you how I know this as it is still covered under the national secrets act (NSA) but trust me on this one-I'm a professional.

Been in the single malt again, huh? :D:D:D:D
 
Back from the range. Ran 20 rnds of 5.56 and 40 of .223 and the rifle functioned perfectly. Nothing outside the 9 ring at 25 yds which is the longest available at the indoor range. I'm very pleased with the S&W Sport. Thanks for the advice.
 
In case anyone did not know, and contrary to colt fan belief, the Army has the ownership of TDP data rights to the M4 for distribution to other sources of production (Army acquired ownership via license of the Colt TDP data in July 2009). Despite the insistance and false misrepresentation concerning the Colt TDP:

1. Colt can not use the TDP to produce a civilian weapon.
Yes, the USA has had the rights to it and has to since they have to give the info out in order to get companies to compete against the current contract holder. Nothing new here.​


I had typed out a line by line response to everything you said, but realized there was no need (as this part above is crux of the problem with your "theory").

Colt was asked by the Govt to produce a smaller M16 (which Colt held the TDP on). Colt accepted this challenge, spent their OWN money to produce the M4. Because of this, Colt owned the TDP for the M4 for a long time. In 2009, the .Mil contract for the M4 ended and Govt could then take the TDP and give it to any company that wanted to compete in a contract for the M4. Now this is where it gets confusing, the GOVT does NOT own the rights to the TDP. Colt does. They wrote it and it belongs TO THEM. Any company that competes in a contract to produce the M4 has to sign an NDA and is given the TDP by the Govt. In the event that a company wins the contract (beating Colt) then HAS TO PAY a royalty fee to Colt on every M4 produced (more on why this currently important later). This is why FN CANNOT sell a Civy version of the M16A2/A4 (as they do not own the rights to the TDP for the M16). So Colt CAN sell commercial versions of the M4 (6920/6921/etc) because they DO own the rights to the M4 TDP.

As we all know, Remington won the current solicitation for the M4A1. The reason why they came in cheaper than Colt is because the US Govt did not figure in the royalty fee that Remington would have to pay to Colt for each M4. This is why the Govt has to re-compete the contract. With that said, the cost difference between what Remington submitted and what Colt submitted was around $30 dollars (not hundreds or double the price as some people think). In the event that Remington does win the M4A1 contract, they will not be able to sell a Civy version of the gun (as they do not own the rights to the TDP).

Hopefully this sheds some light on the topic and we can stop arguing about what the truth actually is.



C4​
 
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I have a related question. I'm in the market for an AR and I am questioning the quality of the S&W Sport model vs some of the other available weapons such as the Sig, Bushmaster, etc. How can the Smith sell for a street price of $650 and the others are $850-$1200? I don't see where the lack of a chrome lined barrel, a dust cover and FA can make that big a difference. Is the Smith actually a quality weapon?

It does make a big difference. They also cut some other corners compared to say a DD, BCM or Colt AR.


C4
 
The government has ownership of the TDA data. They received ownership of the TDP data in 2009 via license. Basically thats what licensing is, its an extension of ownership rights from the original owner to the other party in the license to do something, the specifics of that ownership is spelled out in the licensing. Thus the U.S. Government (more specifically through the U.S. Army) has ownership of the TDA data.

I had already posted everything bought up in your reply now, looks like you missed it.

Later in the post I pointed out two things: The ownership right > "the Army has the ownership of TDP data rights to the M4 for distribution to other sources of production" - and > "Colt does not exclusively hold ownership of the TDP data used for the manufacture of the M4 platform. The remainder in Colts TDP is their proprietary methods of how they meet the MIL-SPEC and MIL-STD for the military weapon only for a specific design. The Army is free to provide the TDP data for the M4 to any manufacturer. Any manufacturer can have their own proprietary methods for how they use the data to manufacture the military weapon for supply. "

Colt does not have exclusive ownership over the TDP data any longer as they gave ownership to the U.S. Government via license in 2009 so Colts ownership is no longer exclusive. Then I further delineated the differences because Colt ownership is no longer exclusive.

There were two issues; The first I pointed out where I posted > "The complaint from Colt concerned how the Army evaluated bids so the GAO took a look and upheld Colts protest." - and the second where I posted > "Also at issue is royality payments. According to the now infamous 'M4 amendment" which expired in 2009 for the sole source contract portion, the US Army would have to pay 5% in royalties to Colt for every M4/M4A1 carbine produced and/or their unique parts (the auto fire related attributes items) procured from second sources for another 26 years – through December 24, 2037"

(I see a typo, I left out the word 'at', i've added it here and in the original post.)

Its two issues: The first issue was the complaint its self which GAO addressed. The second issue, which primarily gave rise to the complaint, is the royality payments. Then I further posted in description > "Its the royality payment that made the GAO step in and give attention to Colts protest, in the contract bids valuation process by the Army they failed to consider the royality payments."

******************************

FN also had ownership rights of the TDP data and that ownership right was to produce and supply what they did/do.

It is not true the TDP is used to manufacture civilian available weapons, there is an email from Colt management (which I outlined in the other post) that specifically states the TDP is used for the military weapon only. I'm not even going to bother to go into the federal laws and rules dealing with government contracts which prohibit and/or make unlawful on so many levels what you claim about the TDP being used for civilian available weapons.

It is no "theory" or problem, its fact and what actually is, don't need you to shed light on anything. I'm not arguing with you, i'm simply stating fact that has been ignored and falsely misrepresented in an effort to disparge other manufacturers as inferior so as to sell Colts.
 
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They didn't cut any corners, they produced a rifle that is unique to S&W for their addressed market segment and in that rifle they included their own features or atttributes specific to that rifle.

To compare it to other manufacturers weapons as using "cut corners" is a false premise. Its like saying a toyota is not a ford because toyota doesn't use ford parts or manufacturing methods and because of that toyota "cut corners". Its also a sales tactic used to create uncertainty about another manufacturers product and you see this type of comment and "sentiment" from distributors trying to sway others to another product.

There are chromed barrels, non-chromed barrels, and melonited barrels (the sport for example), and each has their pros and cons. Its simply a matter of what the individual chooses and the specific attributes a person wishes in a barrel. If you want a chrome barrel then you get a weapon with a chrome barrel. In the same aspect, its a matter of user choice for the features and attributes of other things and then buying the weapon that has or comes closest to what the user choice is.
 
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The government has ownership of the TDA data. They received ownership of the TDP data in 2009 via license. Basically thats what licensing is, its an extension of ownership rights from the original owner to the other party in the license to do something, the specifics of that ownership is spelled out in the licensing. Thus the U.S. Government (more specifically through the U.S. Army) has ownership of the TDA data.

Ownership as defined that they can give it to companies to COMPETE in contracts. That company MUST sign an NDA and CANNOT use it to build guns for the commercial market. They also HAVE TO PAY Colt a Royalty fee for the use of it.

So if you apply common sense to the above statement, why would a company that wins a contract have to pay COLT a royalty fee????????? Answer? The Govt doesn't own it. This is why the current contract with Remington got put back up for solicitation (as the Govt forgot about this fact).






There were two issues; The first I pointed out where I posted > "The complaint from Colt concerned how the Army evaluated bids so the GAO took a look and upheld Colts protest." - and the second where I posted > "Also at issue is royality payments. According to the now infamous 'M4 amendment" which expired in 2009 for the sole source contract portion, the US Army would have to pay 5% in royalties to Colt for every M4/M4A1 carbine produced and/or their unique parts (the auto fire related attributes items) procured from second sources for another 26 years – through December 24, 2037"


The first protest filed was because the royalty payment was never figured into Remington's bid. If they had, Colt would have beat them on price. The second protest filed was because the Govt NEVER agreed on the dollar amount for the royalty.





FN also had ownership rights of the TDP data and that ownership right was to produce and supply what they did/do.

Yes they can USE Colt's TDP to produce M16's for the Govt. No they cannot produce a commercial M16A2/A4. This is why you have NEVER seen a commercially available M16A2/A4. This is called a CLUE that they do not own the TDP.

It is not true the TDP is used to manufacture civilian available weapons, there is an email from Colt management (which I outlined in the other post) that specifically states the TDP is used for the military weapon only. I'm not even going to bother to go into the federal laws and rules dealing with government contracts which prohibit and/or make unlawful on so many levels what you claim about the TDP being used for civilian available weapons.

In Colt's case it is as it is their intellectual property and they have the rights to it so they can use it to produce commercially available M4's. if Colt did not control the TDP, how on EARTH would they be allowed to get the Govt to pay royalties??????????
This is why when you go to Colt, there is NOT two separate lines of parts. Or two separate lines of assembly. All the same. Clue.

If you doubt, simply pick up the phone and call Colt LE or Govt sales and ask them if they can use the TDP to produce commercially available firearms.

It is no "theory" or problem, its fact and what actually is, don't need you to shed light on anything. I'm not arguing with you, i'm simply stating fact that has been ignored and falsely misrepresented in an effort to disparge other manufacturers as inferior so as to sell Colts.

Everything you think you know about this subject comes from the errornet (wikipedia). You have NO inside contacts at ANY of the firearms manufacturers we are discussing. ZERO! So if anything you are trying to promote S&W (or any AR manufacturer) to the status Colt as you think that Colt cannot use the TDP to build their guns. This is false information and I am calling you on it.


C4
 
Could you go into a little more detail on what corners you feel were cut on this rifle?

The receiver on the SPORT is missing the forward assist and dust cover. These parts (specifically the time it takes to make these cuts in the receiver) cost a lot of time. Time on the CNC = money.

They do not do HPT or MPI on the barrel. They do not chrome line the barrel (which is more expensive than Nitride and takes more time to have done). They don't use H buffers as they cost more because of the Tungsten weight. Their receiver extension are not 7075 hammer extruded. They also do not have the dry film lube inside of it (which the TDP calls for).

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

With that said, will you notice a big difference with these missing items? Probably not, but those are some of the reasons why the gun is cheaper.


C4
 
They didn't cut any corners, they produced a rifle that is unique to S&W for their addressed market segment and in that rifle they included their own features or atttributes specific to that rifle.

To compare it to other manufacturers weapons as using "cut corners" is a false premise. Its like saying a toyota is not a ford because toyota doesn't use ford parts or manufacturing methods and because of that toyota "cut corners". Its also a sales tactic used to create uncertainty about another manufacturers product and you see this type of comment and "sentiment" from distributors trying to sway others to another product.

There are chromed barrels, non-chromed barrels, and melonited barrels (the sport for example), and each has their pros and cons. Its simply a matter of what the individual chooses and the specific attributes a person wishes in a barrel. If you want a chrome barrel then you get a weapon with a chrome barrel. In the same aspect, its a matter of user choice for the features and attributes of other things and then buying the weapon that has or comes closest to what the user choice is.

In some ways I think you are correct. The two TDP's for weapons are the M16 and M4. The SPORT fits into neither of these definitions (fully).

S&W's agenda was to make the CHEAPEST AR available. They cut many corners when compared to many of the guns designed for LE/Mil use. Is this good or bad? I think the SPORT is good gun for the money and set the standard for this type of weapon. They also got the attention of other large AR manufacturers (that have never produced a lower end AR before). This means that we will soon see some new AR's that will directly compete against the SPORT.

Stay tuned!



C4
 
I am sorry but if you contact S&W you will find out they do MPI inspect the Bolt and I do not know what else. Also if you look at the sales charts, S&W sells a lot more firearms than Colt. Even Hi Point sells more firearms than Colt, But the Colts do look nice setting on LGS's gun racks.
 
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I am sorry but if you contact S&W you will find out they do MPI inspect the Bolt and I do not know what else. Also if you look at the sales charts, S&W sells a lot more firearms than Colt. Even Hi Point sells more firearms than Colt, But the Colts do look nice setting on LGS's gun racks.

They don't do it in house and so they farm this out. From what I know, they batch MPI/HPT (at best) and this really changes from year to year.

In the beginning S&W got BCG's from CMT. No HPT/MPI was done. Then their BCG's were made by LMT. HPT and MPI was done.

They now get their BCG's from a good company, but I don't think they have doing anything more than batch testing (if that). This could change at any time though.

Combined (with revolvers, handguns, AR's, etc) S&W does sell more firearms. They don't sell more AR's than Colt though.


C4
 
I am sorry but if you contact S&W you will find out they do MPI inspect the Bolt and I do not know what else. Also if you look at the sales charts, S&W sells a lot more firearms than Colt. Even Hi Point sells more firearms than Colt, But the Colts do look nice setting on LGS's gun racks.

Yes they do Grover. Hey something has to collect the dust.:D
 
Grover, Its not that difficult to beat a Colt on most things now a days, actually its not been hard to beat a Colt in most things for many years now.
 
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