Model 13 cylinder in a model 10?

[Muley Gil]

" ... more likely to defeat barriers and armor."

If it defeats soft body armor, it would be illegal under Federal law.

For the money you are discussing putting into this conversion. you could afford to practice more and concentrate on bullet placement. The FBI load, using a 158 grain lead hollow point, is a proven round.

 

[steelslaver]

To me your trying to to fix something that isn't broken with high tech. People have been being killed with 38 caliber bullets for well over hundred years and lots of them with round nosed lead. Your super bullet will most likely be something else once the high tech tip is full of denim, nylon, part of a zipper or something else. Sounds like a fishing lure advertisement. It probably works great in a lab. Some guys fall down dead with a 22lr, some guys keep going after being hit with a 44 mag. Your bullet isn't going to change that. Hey I have seen deer keep going after being hit in the chest with a 100gr bullet going 3000fps from 6mm Remington and 243 Winchesters. Your 100 gr bullet at 1/2 the velocity and 1/2 the twist rate, isn't going to have more "hydraulic shock" and do better because it has a fancy tip. Just won't.

Its like spending a whole bunch of time and money getting a super light trigger pull. While I do like smooth and even light, after playing around I went down the become a better trigger puller path.

 

[9245]

That's mostly marketing boilerplate. Is there a solid, evidence-based reason you appear to be gearing all your choices around a particular and unproven bullet?

Ballistic gel tests.

 

[9245]

To me your trying to to fix something that isn't broken with high tech. People have been being killed with 38 caliber bullets for 200 hundred years and lots of them with round nosed lead. Your supper bullet will most likely be something else once the high tech tip is full of denim, nylon, part of a zipper or something else. Sounds like a fishing lure advertisement. It probably works get in a lab. Some guys fall down dead with a 22lr, some guys keep going after being hit with a 44 mag. Your bullet isn't going to change that. Hey I have seen deer keep going after being hit in the chest with a 100gr bullet going 3000fps from 6mm Remington and 243 Winchesters. Your 100 gr bullet at 1/2 the velocity and 1/2 the twist rate, isn't going to have more "hydraulic shock" and do better because it has a fancy tip. Just won't.

Its like spending a whole bunch of time and money getting a super light trigger pull. While I do like smooth and even light, after playing around I went down the become a better trigger puller path.

There is no hollow point, it is a machined piece of copper.

 

[Hapworth]

Ballistic gel tests.

Links to tests?

 

[Justamessenger]

Do what you want for the range and for posting pics and for fondling...
Carry a bone stock gun and bone stock factory loads, unless you want to be crucified in court.

 

[GerSan69]

To me your trying to to fix something that isn't broken with high tech. People have been being killed with 38 caliber bullets for 200 hundred years and lots of them with round nosed lead. Your supper bullet will most likely be something else once the high tech tip is full of denim, nylon, part of a zipper or something else. Sounds like a fishing lure advertisement. It probably works get in a lab. Some guys fall down dead with a 22lr, some guys keep going after being hit with a 44 mag. Your bullet isn't going to change that. Hey I have seen deer keep going after being hit in the chest with a 100gr bullet going 3000fps from 6mm Remington and 243 Winchesters. Your 100 gr bullet at 1/2 the velocity and 1/2 the twist rate, isn't going to have more "hydraulic shock" and do better because it has a fancy tip. Just won't.

Its like spending a whole bunch of time and money getting a super light trigger pull. While I do like smooth and even light, after playing around I went down the become a better trigger puller path.

Steelslaver, you are the wisest man I've ever "met." Talk about getting to the heart of the matter and saying what needs to be said.
I tip my internet-issue cap to you, sir.

 

[jjmIII_Ruger]

My goal is 1,300 fps or better, any suggestions?

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

 

[steelslaver]

I am sure this bullet would be great to have if I ever have to defend myself against a naked block of boneless ballistic gel. But, most likely it will be a human between 140 to 300# wearing anything from a wife beater T shirt to a Carhart coat, a flannel shirt with a pack of cigs in the pocket and thermal underwear. Plus maybe a necklace with a hunk of metal on it. Who knows. I am going with a big heavy bullet. As a civilian, I doubt car doors, body armor or ballistic gel will be in the equation

I once saw about a 200# running mule deer buck, wearing a light fur coat, get hit in the side by a 105 gr ,243 going close to 3000fps. It hunched up like gut shot, the next shot dropped it. Upon dressing it proved the first bullet struck a rib and turned and went back into the guts, 2nd round stuck just inches away, hit no rib and blew its heart up. The guy shooting the 243 was an excellent shot to nail it the second time or that deer may have gone a long ways. I have yet to see a deer or elk go very far when I shot it in the chest with a bullet over 150gr. But, did have one I shot right behind the front shoulder just above the heart with a 180gr 300 Winchester Magnum go about 30' before it piled up. Thats a lot of bullet, velocity and expansion for something under 200#. There is no Magic bullet.

 

[steelslaver]

Do what you want for the range and for posting pics and for fondling...
Carry a bone stock gun and bone stock factory loads, unless you want to be crucified in court.

You see comments like this all the time and although I am sure that a prosecutor that is out to get you will throw up as much mud as he can to see what will stick, there isn't much case law to prove that having a modified gun or ammunition is going to make the difference. The prosecutor can just as easily try to make hay with your choice of stock gun and ammo. Why were you carrying a deadly cop killer 357 magnum with 110-158gr high velocity full metal jackets, hollow, soft points??? Why were you carrying it in a such and such holster that allowed you to draw it rapidly?? Why were you carrying so much ammo. Why did you have a deadly Glock that holds 19 rounds of a military round like the 9mm "German Luger" ???? Why did you feel it necessary to have a concealed weapons permit??? How come you own 3,5 12, 23 or 58 guns Mr shooter???? On and on.

This would also vary from location to location. Shooting to shooting. If YOU did the right thing I highly doubt your choice of either gun or ammo is going to convict you.

 

[Hapworth]

You see comments like this all the time and although I am sure that a prosecutor that is out to get you will throw up as much mud as he can to see what will stick, there isn't much case law to prove that having a modified gun or ammunition is going to make the difference. The prosecutor can just as easily try to make hay with your choice of stock gun and ammo. Why were you carrying a deadly cop killer 357 magnum with 110-158gr high velocity full metal jackets, hollow, soft points??? Why were you carrying it in a such and such holster that allowed you to draw it rapidly?? Why were you carrying so much ammo. Why did you have a deadly Glock that holds 19 rounds of a military round like the 9mm "German Luger" ???? Why did you feel it necessary to have a concealed weapons permit??? How come you own 3,5 12, 23 or 58 guns Mr shooter???? On and on.

This would also vary from location to location. Shooting to shooting. If YOU did the right thing I highly doubt your choice of either gun or ammo is going to convict you.

This is of course exactly correct -- to which I'll add: I defy anyone to produce any verdict in the U.S. legal system where a case of justified use of deadly for in self-defense resulted in a guilty verdict because of firearm modification or type of ammunition used...

...but, let's do that in a different thread so as not to overly divert this one.

 

[Doug M.]

I'll divert it a bit, despite the request. In fact, two different diversions.

First: Fudd. While arguably a bit harsh in today's more language sensitive world (in which I fit poorly), it is a workable label. It was applied mostly by people with backgrounds more oriented to fighting - military vets of the GWOT, and cops, especially in higher action/rougher/more troubled settings. I remember the Jim Zumbo incident, in which he made heartfelt but unwise and ignorant comments about AR platforms. As far as I know, it cost him his career. The anger from the more fighting oriented folks was staggering; if you didn't see the responses you won't believe how angry folks were. Pat Rogers stuck his neck out, put his money where his mouth was, and invited Zumbo to a class. My recollection is that this was written up on the old 10-8forums, which sadly are no more. Pat understood that we all have to stick together, regardless of platform (and he had an epic collection of old school revolvers too, in addition to enough ARs to outfit at least a Marine Company, for valid business reasons). I'll admit my 9mm AR is probably not as practical as a .357 Marlin CSBL with a sling, light, and red dot.

Factory ammo and the like: Mas Ayoob's vigorously asserted position has to be considered in the context of his early professional development - the late 70s forward, and largely in the east/New England. The knowledge of defensive use of a firearm was primitive and often wrong, and armed citizens were rare because this was before the late 80s shift starting with Florida. Part of his job as he saw it was to predict risks that might come up in litigation, and he was not wrong - they might. Defense lawyers in both criminal and civil practice didn't know what they didn't know, so the quality of defense work available was ... poor. What we see now is different, not better. Plaintiff's counsel in particular tend to make up spectacular BS claims (I have seen this in a couple of cases with which I am very familiar); some prosecutors do the same (the disgraceful prosecutions of 1Lt. Lorance and of the Blackwater contractors come to mind, along with the crud going on now in Seattle, SF, and LA), and while there are good defense attorneys out there, the expense is staggering (figure 500K). While I would neither see nor be concerned about action consistent with his position from my office and most of my peers, that does not make him wrong. If you don't know the history, you won't understand the "why" of his position.

 

[9245]

I am sure this bullet would be great to have if I ever have to defend myself against a naked block of boneless ballistic gel. But, most likely it will be a human between 140 to 300# wearing anything from a wife beater T shirt to a Carhart coat, a flannel shirt with a pack of cigs in the pocket and thermal underwear. Plus maybe a necklace with a hunk of metal on it. Who knows. I am going with a big heavy bullet. As a civilian, I doubt car doors, body armor or ballistic gel will be in the equation

I once saw about a 200# running mule deer buck, wearing a light fur coat, get hit in the side by a 105 gr ,243 going close to 3000fps. It hunched up like gut shot, the next shot dropped it. Upon dressing it proved the first bullet struck a rib and turned and went back into the guts, 2nd round stuck just inches away, hit no rib and blew its heart up. The guy shooting the 243 was an excellent shot to nail it the second time or that deer may have gone a long ways. I have yet to see a deer or elk go very far when I shot it in the chest with a bullet over 150gr. But, did have one I shot right behind the front shoulder just above the heart with a 180gr 300 Winchester Magnum go about 30' before it piled up. Thats a lot of bullet, velocity and expansion for something under 200#. There is no Magic bullet.

Not a very well done or professional test, but here you go:

Underwood Xtreme Defender .38 Special+P Test - YouTube

Better test using actual ballistics gel:

Underwood 38 Special +P Xtreme Defender 100 Gr Clear Gel Test Lehigh Defense - YouTube

9mm, Not 38 special but it gives a good idea of how the projectile does against barriers:

9mm Defensive Load Barrier Tests! - YouTube

Without barriers:

NEW Underwood 9mm Xtreme Defender Test - YouTube

Against body armor:

Underwood Extreme Defender 65gr/90gr 9mm +p vs Armor - YouTube

That is what I am attempting to duplicate.

 

[BB57]

I am sure this bullet would be great to have if I ever have to defend myself against a naked block of boneless ballistic gel. But, most likely it will be a human between 140 to 300# wearing anything from a wife beater T shirt to a Carhart coat, a flannel shirt with a pack of cigs in the pocket and thermal underwear. Plus maybe a necklace with a hunk of metal on it. Who knows. I am going with a big heavy bullet. As a civilian, I doubt car doors, body armor or ballistic gel will be in the equation

I once saw about a 200# running mule deer buck, wearing a light fur coat, get hit in the side by a 105 gr ,243 going close to 3000fps. It hunched up like gut shot, the next shot dropped it. Upon dressing it proved the first bullet struck a rib and turned and went back into the guts, 2nd round stuck just inches away, hit no rib and blew its heart up. The guy shooting the 243 was an excellent shot to nail it the second time or that deer may have gone a long ways. I have yet to see a deer or elk go very far when I shot it in the chest with a bullet over 150gr. But, did have one I shot right behind the front shoulder just above the heart with a 180gr 300 Winchester Magnum go about 30' before it piled up. Thats a lot of bullet, velocity and expansion for something under 200#. There is no Magic bullet.

I used a .243 when I was a teenager hunting deer and antelope. But I soon dumped it for something with a but more weight and penetration - and a bit less velocity.

At short ranges high velocity can be counter productive on medium sized game where fragile bullets can either deflect or come apart and under penetrate a distressingly high percentage of the time. I much preferred the .308 to the .243. However, back when I hunted I regarded the .280 Rem with 162-168 gr bullets is just about perfect for 0-500 yard shots in the big flat states out west.

 

[steelslaver]

My wife and step daughters use 6mm Remingtons (I have 4 of them counting a re barrelled XP100)

It usually does a good job, but 2 years ago wife shot a 3 point muley buck (western count) at less than 100 yds. Hit in the chest but missed the heart or any major organs. It stumbled another 150 yds down hill and was till going when I put a 45 colt in it. Found the bullet which had mushroomed nicely, on far side side front shoulder. But, if it would have been the same size man, it sure could have shot back several times

That was a 105 gr soft point moving at around 300fps. Velocity is nice, but it isn't magic

 

[snowman.45]

I know I've posted it here before but here is my 10-8 round butt that I converted into a 3" 357 using a parts kit from a 13-3

Like said before I would pair a barrel with a cylinder rather than trying to cut down a 38 special barrel face to fit a 357 cylinder which is longer.

I have a little over $500 in this gun

I'm not trying to be a jerk but saying sell what you have and buy what you want doesn't work anymore. Especially when 3" barrel guns are doubling the price of the same models in other barrel lengths. (A NIB 13-4 three inch just sold for over $1200)

If you have a mechanical ability and are willing to invest in tools you can use multiple times you can definitely switch barrels and build more desirable guns for cheaper than they cost to buy.

This is exactly what I have in mind for the barrel-less 10-7 I picked up from J&G Sales. I've been able to find a 4" M13 barrel, but learned the cylinder and yoke I ordered is recessed model, so I'm still in the hunt for a K-frame non-recessed cylinder. Further, I need to find someone who can properly crown the barrel after cutting to 3", cut for the sight and mill flat sides to remove the stampings, then fit the barrel. I'll rust-blue the project after that.

 

[steelslaver]

The recessed cylinder will work. Both my J&G Smolt and Pinto 13 are running recessed cylinders and the yoke don't matter as long as your cylinder has the gas ring on it. You can use the model 10's original yoke. I never changed the yoke on any of mine.

To use a recessed cylinder in a non recessed frame you must use a fine fire and carefully file back the frame lug about .06. I your real steady you can do it with a dreaded Dremel tool. But, I recommend a file that has been safes on the edge and some duct tape on the frame nearby. The other option is to turn a ledge on the rear of the cylinder to clearance the lug.


Any cylinder change may need some fitting besides the lug. Even with its own yoke there is no guarantee your yoke and cylinder will fit right in another K frame. Sometimes the window width is a bit different and the yoke tube needs shimmed or trimmed. You ejector rod might be a tiny bit long and hit the barrel lug on the barrel especially if the barrel is changed. Sometimes it all goes righ together perfect, sometimes everything is just a bit off and you have to fiddle around to get it all right.

I have a couple recessed 45 colt cylinders made by reaming recessed 44 mag cylinders and filing back the lug

You can buy new lugs from Midway, but I am sure they are a fitted part. You remove the side plate, support the frame around lug and then locate the pinon inside frame drive it out. Tap in new lug and stake it in place.


You also do not need to mill the sides flat to get rid of the markings. Just take a small smooth faced hammer (say 4oz) and tap the markings for a bit. They were put in by displacing metal NOT metal removal, so the idea is to cause some to move back. This tapping will not remove all the markings, just some. Then I take the barrel to my industrial belt grinder and using what is called a slack belt, where there is about 8" of unbacked up belt between 2 2" wheels, running a 400 grit belt I run the side of the barrel from muzzle to just past the marking moving it back and forth and rolling it a bit (not quite till the rib or ejector lug touches the belt) until the roll marks are gone. The belt set up this way curves to the surface of the barrel and blends to the contour. I finish with a few passes on a 800 grit belt. On the gun where I made a 6" K22 barrel into a 327 Federal, I only removed the markings from the side marked 22lr ctg. You can't tell it looks any different than the S&W marked side.

It is the same way I get rid off the import marks in front of the trigger guard.
Look in front of trigger on this J&G frame that is now a recessed 357 mag running a 4" Python barrel and adjustable sights.

 

[snowman.45]

The recessed cylinder will work. Both my J&G Smolt and Pinto 13 are running recessed cylinders and the yoke don't matter as long as your cylinder has the gas ring on it. You can use the model 10's original yoke. I never changed the yoke on any of mine.

To use a recessed cylinder in a non recessed frame you must use a fine fire and carefully file back the frame lug about .06. I your real steady you can do it with a dreaded Dremel tool. But, I recommend a file that has been safes on the edge and some duct tape on the frame nearby. The other option is to turn a ledge on the rear of the cylinder to clearance the lug.


Any cylinder change may need some fitting besides the lug. Even with its own yoke there is no guarantee your yoke and cylinder will fit right in another K frame. Sometimes the window width is a bit different and the yoke tube needs shimmed or trimmed. You ejector rod might be a tiny bit long and hit the barrel lug on the barrel especially if the barrel is changed. Sometimes it all goes righ together perfect, sometimes everything is just a bit off and you have to fiddle around to get it all right.

I have a couple recessed 45 colt cylinders made by reaming recessed 44 mag cylinders and filing back the lug

You can buy new lugs from Midway, but I am sure they are a fitted part. You remove the side plate, support the frame around lug and then locate the pinon inside frame drive it out. Tap in new lug and stake it in place.


You also do not need to mill the sides flat to get rid of the markings. Just take a small smooth faced hammer (say 4oz) and tap the markings for a bit. They were put in by displacing metal NOT metal removal, so the idea is to cause some to move back. This tapping will not remove all the markings, just some. Then I take the barrel to my industrial belt grinder and using what is called a slack belt, where there is about 8" of unbacked up belt between 2 2" wheels, running a 400 grit belt I run the side of the barrel from muzzle to just past the marking moving it back and forth and rolling it a bit (not quite till the rib or ejector lug touches the belt) until the roll marks are gone. The belt set up this way curves to the surface of the barrel and blends to the contour. I finish with a few passes on a 800 grit belt. On the gun where I made a 6" K22 barrel into a 327 Federal, I only removed the markings from the side marked 22lr ctg. You can't tell it looks any different than the S&W marked side.

It is the same way I get rid off the import marks in front of the trigger guard.
Look in front of trigger on this J&G frame that is now a recessed 357 mag running a 4" Python barrel and adjustable sights.

Thanks, steelslaver. I was pretty sure the recessed cylinder could be made to working had thought about the the lug clearance. I would rather use a non-recessed cylinder, if I can find one. If not, it may go to that. The same is true of finding a blued Model 10 3"barrel. I kinda hate the idea of cutting down a 4", but we'll see what I can find for a while, first.

 

[Doug M.]

In terms of ammo performance, the reality is that a standard velocity 158 grain SWC is a really good round and almost certain to shoot to the sights.