Model 1902 M&P in 38spl HELP

[hkcavalier]

I like the RB too, but a grip adapter makes it a little sweeter.

 

[handejector]

There is a "problem" with the engineering change notation. At serial number 50000, which we know as the 1902 1st change, the model of 1905 was introduced. This is what causes all the nomenclature problem for the Neal & Jink (N&J) notion about engineering changes. The square-butt variation was introduced into, and intermingled with, the round-butt serial number series.

At that point, we have two otherwise identical guns - except for the butt configuration.
The round-butt variant is a 1902 1st change, according to N&J ; the square-butt variant is a model of 1905, according to the factory literature and catalogs.

Everything remains the same until serial umber 62450, when the factory changes the design of the cylinder stop, and adds the 5th frame screw. This is an engineering change, not a model change.

The question is - what is N&J to do at this point?

Mike,
You present a very valid point.
Once I became aware of the Square Butt guns that don't have the trigger guard screw, I guess I just accepted them as "an exception to the rule". To my mind, they aren't hard to clearly describe as what they are:
An early 1905 that is still mechanically a 1902-1st

or:
A 1902-1st/1905
or even:
A 1902-1st with a Square Butt


I had one here-
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ll-38-targets-pic-heavy.html?highlight=mother


This is it-

It lettered as a 1902-1st:

Mechanically, it is a 1902-1st, but I did not want to offend anyone's sensibilities, so with this controversy raging when I posted it, I described it thusly:

A 1902-1st/1905 38 M&P Target, Factory Engraved, Checkered Trigger, Blue with Nickel Cylinder, 6-1/2 inch 38 Special, Aftermarket Checkered Pearl Grips. NOTE that it is one of the very few, very early square butts that do NOT yet have the trigger guard screw.

I get words very cheap. My keyboard is full of em.
So, by the time a guy even cares about these mechanical variations and the evolution of the K frame, we can easily convey what we are talking about with a few cheap words. Not many people will ever see one of those 1902-1sts with a square butt.


I really think a description varies, or should vary, by the audience it is presented to.

N&J works very well for giving a concise description that we students of minutiae usually understand. Simply add RB or SB to whatever N&J variant is used to describe an M&P from 05 onward, and the advanced student quickly gets what you mean.


When a newbie drops by to ID Granpappy's pistol, I quit giving more than he really wanted to know, and changed how I answered.
Instead of saying "You have a 1905-4th Change with a Round Butt from around 1939" to simply saying "You have a 38 M&P from around 1939 with a Round Butt". To me, adding the 1902 controversy to that guy's description is just adding confusion. The Factory had stopped describing them in catalogs as 1902s and 1905s 22 years before this guy's gun was made, and simply showed them as M&Ps with RB or SB.


I'm leaving soon for Lilliput, so I hope this gets settled posthaste. Those people who would crack the big end of an egg must be eradicated from the earth! I just can't allow it.

 

[glowe]

Why do you suppose the factory even built a 4 screw frame with a square butt at almost the same time they were introducing their 5 screw square butt?? I see where transitions take place all the time in the factory, where the company used up older parts until they were gone, but to manufacture maybe a handful of frames like that when the Model 1905 was probably being forged doesn't make sense. Do you suppose that revolver was an experimental specimen to prove that the square butt design would be viable?

 

[DWalt]

I do not use "1902" or "1905" as descriptors after S&W quit using them. Just M&P, square or round butt.

 

[Absalom]

.....
When a newbie drops by to ID Granpappy's pistol, I quit giving more than he really wanted to know, and changed how I answered.
Instead of saying "You have a 1905-4th Change with a Round Butt from around 1939" to simply saying "You have a 38 M&P from around 1939 with a Round Butt". To me, adding the 1902 controversy to that guy's description is just adding confusion. .....

There is a problem with simplifying things too much in a forum like this:

You should know your people well enough by now to realize that at least half a dozen other forum members will feel compelled to add detail to your answer, some will not have been around long enough to know what they're talking about, others will jump at the chance to have another go at exactly this discussion, and the newbie will be REALLY confused

 

[hkcavalier]

There is a problem with simplifying things too much in a forum like this:

You should know your people well enough by now to realize that at least half a dozen other forum members will feel compelled to add detail to your answer, some will not have been around long enough to know what they're talking about, others will jump at the chance to have another go at exactly this discussion, and the newbie will be REALLY confused

This happens all the time. New OP, post something like, "Inherited this old gun, help plz" and we delve into the intricacies of the ejector knob, the stock medallions, the ampersand, barrel pin, recessed charge holes, one-liner, etc.

 

[handejector]

...................... and we delve into the intricacies of the ejector knob, the stock medallions, the ampersand, barrel pin, recessed charge holes, one-liner, etc.

Don't forget grip screw variations!
NOBODY talks about them.

Have you noticed the slots were narrower way back when, but got wider over the years?
The threaded ends had a higher polish in the old days, but became rougher over time.
Truly.


I've begun a rudimentary classification system-


GSNSPE - Grip Screw, Narrow Slot, Polished End
GSNSSRE - Grip Screw, Narrow Slot, Slightly Rougher End
GSNSRE - Grip Screw, Narrow Slot, Rough End


GSSWSPE - Grip Screw, Slightly Wider Slot, Polished End
GSSWSSRE - Grip Screw, Slightly Wider Slot, Slightly Rougher End
GSSWSRE - Grip Screw, Slightly Wider Slot, Rough End


GSWSPE - Grip Screw, Wider Slot, Polished End
GSWSSRE - Grip Screw, Wider Slot, Slightly Rougher End
GSWSRE - Grip Screw, Wider Slot, Rough End


WRITE THESE DOWN!

These are for the older machined grip screws from 1899 to WW II.
Later, more modern post WW II screws appear to have a swaged head. They appear to have been made on a screw machine that heads and threads them.
I'll get to them later.



I'm off to take my meds now.

 

[handejector]

Why do you suppose the factory even built a 4 screw frame with a square butt at almost the same time they were introducing their 5 screw square butt?? I see where transitions take place all the time in the factory, where the company used up older parts until they were gone, but to manufacture maybe a handful of frames like that when the Model 1905 was probably being forged doesn't make sense. Do you suppose that revolver was an experimental specimen to prove that the square butt design would be viable?

The most likely answer to me is simply that the square butt frame was ready before the new internal parts for the new type of cylinder stop were ready. It changed both the trigger and the cylinder stop. The square butt frame would possibly require a new forging die, but those are relatively simple dies to produce.

The grips were definitely no big deal to make since they were sanded on the frames.

Do you suppose that revolver was an experimental specimen to prove that the square butt design would be viable?

No, I don't think so.

Square butt frames and grips were completed, and built into guns with the same lockwork parts currently in use. Changing the butt shape was a simple matter compared to changing the lockwork.

The new parts had to be engineered, drawn up, produced, tested, probably refined, drawn up again in final form to probably patent (unless S&W was copying somebody) and to produce, jigs and tooling set up, and parts finally produced.
After the newly designed cyl stops and triggers were finshed, checked out, and some test guns built, they began making both round and square butt guns with the new lockwork.

They were the same frames with some different machining.

 

[Muley Gil]

Lee, the letter on the M&P in your post #22 doesn't mention the target sights. Was it converted from a fixed sighted revolver or was the fact that it was a target model not in Roy's records?

 

[glowe]

Does anyone have a date when the first 5 screw Model 1905 was manufactured?

 

[Waveski]

I have wrapped duct tape tightly around my head whilst reading this most recent 1902/1905 analysis ... No disrespect intended towards the providers of information and opinion on this subject.

Now - how does the greatly differing spring configuration factor into this definitive analysis? Would it be accurate to state that a S&W revolver with the separate rebound spring in the grip frame absolutely for sure is a model of 1902? And , while I'm at it , are there any square butts with the multiple spring configuration?

 

[glowe]

. . . Would it be accurate to state that a S&W revolver with the separate rebound spring in the grip frame absolutely for sure is a model of 1902? . . .

Not quite, since the Model 1899 also had the same spring assembly.

As I understand it, the rebound slide was not officially part of the differentiation between the 1902 & 1905, rather it had to do with the cylinder stop design change and the addition of chafing bushings. The rebound slide bears the patent date of February 6, 1906, the Model 1905 was introduced in 1905, so no connection to the ID change. The introduction of the rebound slide signified the start of the 38 Hand Ejector Military & Police Model 1905, 1st Change.

 

[Waveski]

I probably should have clarified the context of my question. I meant to ask it is terms of differentiating the 1902 from the 1905.

Your statement "the rebound slide was not officially part of the differentiation between the 1902 & 1905" surprises me ; it sure seems like a significant change.

I am sure that all of this made sense to Smith and Wesson management in the early 1900's. Or , maybe not.

 

[Absalom]

...
I am sure that all of this made sense to Smith and Wesson management in the early 1900's. Or , maybe not.

Actually it wouldn't have to. Remember that this exact point is the reason for this whole discussion:

The company never thought of their guns in terms of a neat sequence of numbered "Changes" defined by specific technical changes. That's all made up by collectors. Except for the 1902 and 1905 differentiation obvious to the eye and the buyer, by the shape of the handle, it was one gun and stuff just changed over time.

We're archaeologists arguing over the classification of dinosaur bones. The dinosaurs had no idea, and S&W is the dinosaur in this case.

 

[glowe]

. . . Your statement "the rebound slide was not officially part of the differentiation between the 1902 & 1905" surprises me ; it sure seems like a significant change . . .

That is the point, it was a significant change, actually the 1st Change for the Model 1905 at serial number 73,251. The first Model 1905 was serial number 62,450 a according to Roy's book.

 

[Waveski]

Am I to understand that the early 1905 , previous to number 73,251 , had a square butt and the rebound spring in the grip frame?

 

[shouldazagged]

To quote an old Monte Python sketch, "My brain hurts."

 

[glowe]

There were some made, how many I do not know. Lee's Model 1902 shows no 5th screw, but a square butt with serial number 62052, shipped in June 1905. I believe they are rare birds. I am guessing that almost all from 62XXX to 73XXX were round butt.

 

[rct269]

Solutions to the dilemma------------------------

Mine's pretty simple: If the trigger return spring is of the leaf variety, it's a 1902 (this as opposed to butt shapes----which are admittedly easier to see). If it's a coil spring, it's a 1905. Now, as noted, neither of these springs are easy to see, so for those with an aversion to screwdrivers, it goes like this: If there's no screw going into the frame in front of the trigger guard, it's a 1902. If there is, it's a 1905---and beyond. (For those of you inclined to take these written words as gospel, be advised you'll get an argument about this trigger spring business. And it's an argument of the most difficult type---every word from both sides is true. So you pays your money and you takes your pick!

Now, as to asking the Historian which is which, I've done just that. He said my round butt was a Model of 1902 Target. Of course I could have told you it wasn't a 1905, because it shipped in 1902.

The next one is somewhat more problematic, 'cause it shipped in 1906!! AND---------- it has a square butt, so it's a----you guessed it, it's a .38 Military & Police Model of 1902 First Change Target----this from the Historian---HISSELF!!

All that's pretty much in line with my trigger return spring business, 'cause neither one of them has that screw in front of the trigger guard.

And for those of you who like to identify these things with a "pre-" prefix, these are "pre-five screw four screws"---but with different butts---one of which is a "pre-square butt". And it should be noted it's a "pre-square butt hand ejector revolver" because there are some pre-hand ejector revolvers with square butts too----and even some with "birds-head" butts.

Got all that?!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[handejector]

Solutions to the dilemma------------------------

Mine's pretty simple: If the trigger return spring is of the leaf variety, it's a 1902 (this as opposed to butt shapes----which are admittedly easier to see). If it's a coil spring, it's a 1905. Now, as noted, neither of these springs are easy to see, so for those with an aversion to screwdrivers, it goes like this: If there's no screw going into the frame in front of the trigger guard, it's a 1902. If there is, it's a 1905---and beyond.

Ralph,
It seems like you are mixing apples and oranges.
The screw in the trigger guard has nothing to do with the trigger return.
It actuates the cylinder stop.


In N&J, the triggerguard screw is the difference between the 1902-1st and the 1905.
The 1905 still has a leaf spring for the trigger return. The rebound slide does not appear till the 1905-1st Change.