Model 1902 M&P in 38spl HELP

Lee, the letter on the M&P in your post #22 doesn't mention the target sights. Was it converted from a fixed sighted revolver or was the fact that it was a target model not in Roy's records?


I'm pretty sure it shipped as a Target.
Go here-
The Mother of All 38 Targets! (Pic Heavy!!)
and you will see that the sights are numbered to it (assembly number).
I think Roy just forgot to state it was a Target because there was so much else to talk about, like the engraving and the two tone finish.
It was already lettered when I bought it, and I did not get a new or corrected letter.
I think it shipped just like you see it, except for the grips, and the extractor/ratchet was replaced in 3-15.
 
I have wrapped duct tape tightly around my head whilst reading this most recent 1902/1905 analysis ... No disrespect intended towards the providers of information and opinion on this subject.
Is it the aluminum duct tape, or the old fabric kind?
You might want to consider real tin foil just to be safe. ;) :D:D



Now - how does the greatly differing spring configuration factor into this definitive analysis? Would it be accurate to state that a S&W revolver with the separate rebound spring in the grip frame absolutely for sure is a model of 1902? And , while I'm at it , are there any square butts with the multiple spring configuration?


Again, the 1902, the 1902-1st, and the 1905 all have a flat spring for the trigger return.
The 1905-1st is where the Rebound Slide first appears.
 
A subtle error on my part

The Model of 1905 was introduced at serial number 58000, not 50000. (I thought at the time I typed 50000 that something was not right about that.) The 5th frame screw was introduced at 62450. This means that there is less than 4250 4-screw 1905's in .38 caliber, and some additional ones in 32-20 caliber. I say less than 4250, because round and square butt models are intermingled in the same serial number series, in .38 caliber. The exact number of 4-screw 1905's is not known.

As far as I know, there is no relationship between the Model of 1905, and the 5th frame screw. The 1905 was a new model, and all the factory literature reflects that. The redesigned cylinder stop, with the accompanying 5th frame screw, is an engineering change. Both had been in the works for some time, prior to serial 58000 and 62450. That they are so close in timing is entirely coincidental.

As to the ease or difficulty of making round vs square butt frames, one was not made out of the other. Rather, they were made with different forging dies. This, ultimately, is what caused the termination of the square-butt model. It was an manufacturing efficiency, or cost saving move, to eliminate the square-butt frame around the turn of the century - about 20 years ago. Creating a square-butt with grips on a round-butt frame simply made more sense, from a manufacturing perspective. This information was relayed to me by the historian.

Finally, on a different note, if Lee's wonderful engraved square-butt 4-screw .38 target is a 1902 1st change, I'm a goat (a speech mannerism I picked up from David Carroll!). If anyone has a doubt, call the historian and ask him. Lee's letter on the gun is yet another example of the N&J confusion about the description for guns in the 58000 - 62450 serial number range.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
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To quote an old Monte Python sketch, "My brain hurts." :D

Maybe there should be a warning at the beginning of the thread:

"In case of mental distress, stop reading and memorize the highlighted line from the attached catalog page!" :D
 

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Maybe there should be a warning at the beginning of the thread:

"In case of mental distress, stop reading and memorize the highlighted line from the attached catalog page!" :D

So that would make this revolver a model of 1902,4th change
manufactured in 1917. :eek::rolleyes::D:confused: transitional.
Anyway, seller is out of town for a week but if I bring it home
I'll start a new thread with new pics.
One more question though. Can I shoot +P in it?
:eek:I'm kidding, I'm KIDDING!!!:D:D:D
Thank you ALL! :)
 
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I have wrapped duct tape tightly around my head whilst reading this most recent 1902/1905 analysis ... No disrespect intended towards the providers of information and opinion on this subject.

Now - how does the greatly differing spring configuration factor into this definitive analysis? Would it be accurate to state that a S&W revolver with the separate rebound spring in the grip frame absolutely for sure is a model of 1902? And , while I'm at it , are there any square butts with the multiple spring configuration?

That is an unusual spot for a lanyard loop. Factory loops are usually 1/10" ahead of center of the butt. Can you show a picture of the bottom of the butt?
 
Sure. Your question rang a bell ... I dug around and found thjis -http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/488720-what-i-shot-today.html
 

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Waveski

A model of 1902 has a round butt. A model of 1905 has a square butt. THAT is the definitive difference.

At serial number 73251, the trigger rebound slide was introduced, replacing the earlier separate frame leaf spring design. The engineering change affects both round butt and square butt models. All square butt models from 58000 to 73251 have the multiple spring configuration, as do all the round butt models.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
Mr. Priwer and I debated this point five years ago when I made a post titled "1902 Square Butt--How Rare?" which you can find via a search in this section of the forum. Mr. Priiwer adheres to old catalog descriptions. which imo are not sufficiently accurate for collecting purposes. The books on S&W by factory historian Roy Jinks and collector Bob Neal as well as the SCSW state that the square butt K-frame .38 S[ecial was introduced at s/n 58000 in November 1904. The internal mechanism on those early square butts is the same as on the round butts made at that time (1902 model, First Change).

The 1905 models, introduced n the spring of that year, added the screw in front of the triggerguard retaining a spring & plunger for the cylinder stop. Both round & square butt models received this design change beginning with s/n 62450. THEREFORE, it seems to me that guns with serials between 58000 and 62449 are 1902 (First Change) models, REGARDLESS of butt configuration. NOTE that the 1905 models and all prior M&Ps had the two leaf springs in the front strap with two screwheads visible. The bottom screw tensions the mainspring for the hammer. The upper screw is for the short leaf spring which is the trigger return spring.

Mr. Priwer correctly notes the rebound slide was introduced at s/n 73251 for BOTH r & s frames, and the 73000-odd .38 specials made between 1906-09 are corretly termed 1905 First Change guns. That change eliminated the short leaf spring and upper screw in the front strap. If these changes had occurred after 1957 the models would be identified by dash numbers, but those were not in use during the first half of the 20th Century. There was also an overlap of serials between the First & Second Change 1905 models ending at s/n 146890.

It is interesting to speculate how things might have been done pre-1957 had the factory been interested in better identification. What were called "Models" (Model Years) might have been better termed "engineering changes." But we cannot rewrite history. The factory letter on the preceding page about the engraved revolver describes it as a "1902 First Change" even though it has a square butt frame. I think Roy Jinks' description is most accurate, and if he can describe a particular square butt gun as a 1902 Model, I think the rest of us ought to be able to do the same! What say Mr. Priwer & others?
 
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JW

The square-butt k-frames from 58000 to 62450 all are 4-screw frames. The following picture is a special drawer in my gun cabinets, and it contains only 4-screw 1902 and 1905 revolvers.

mikepriwer-albums-mlp-17-rarities-picture18806-20180902-165110-a.jpg


Starting from the left, the first four are pre-58000, and the last five are 58000 to 62450. The one with the pearl grips is a 5" 1902 target, about s/n 58700 or so. The next four are square butts: one is a 4" M&P, and the other three are targets.

They are all four-screw frames, meaning they have the two flat springs visible under the grips.

" The 1905 models, introduced n the spring of that year, added the screw in front
of the triggerguard retaining a spring & plunger for the cylinder stop."

If the above statement (of yours) is suggesting that the introductory 1905's ( 58000 to 62450) were 5-screw frame, you are wrong. Everything from 58000 to 62450 is a 4-screw frame. More clearly put, everything from s/n 1 to s/n 62450 is a 4-screw frame. This, of course, includes the 1899's, 1902's, and 1905's . This is because these three models are all intermingled in the same serial number series.

While there is a rational for the historians statements about these guns, the simple fact is that (1) the model of 1905 was introduced at 58000, and (2) everything from 1 to 62450 is a four-screw gun, and (3) a 1905 has a square butt and a 1902 has a round butt. You can't argue about this. It is what it is.

As to model vs engineering changes, the factory never confuses the two. They do, from time to time, change the name of a model, but they never talk about engineering changes in any of their advertising literature; only models. Engineering changes are internal matters. Until, of course, after the assignment of model numbers.

The historian, somewhat like you, finds themselves between a rock and a hard place, when it comes to reconciling Neal and Jinks with the messy situation of multiple models in one serial number series. The 1905 (as a new model) is introduced at the point which N&J call a 1902 1st change. AT 58000, this new model is simply a 1905, but is also identical in all engineering respects to a 1902 (which N&J wants to call a 1902 1st change.

What is N&J to do ?

N&J delays the recognition of the new 1905, until 62450. This is why, sometimes but not always, a gun like Lee's will letter as a 1902 1st change. On other occasions, like my guns, they letter as an early 1905. N&J goes further, making a tacit assumption that the model of 1902 no longer exists after this point. This is why most, but not all, subsequent round-butts letter as 1905's . Other similar guns are known to letter as late 1902's - which, of course, they are not (late).

According to the historian, N&J's notions of engineering changes (note engineering changes) comes from some early work of Walter Roper, when he was in charge of the service department. The department needed a list, by serial number ranges, of where to find spare parts for guns as they came in. In this context, and because there is only one serial number series to worry about, N&J makes perfect sense. In the service department world, the model names are not relevant; only the serial number. Calling everything after 62450 a 1905 works perfectly well. They didn't have to write any letters with model descriptions. Just get the serial number, and go to the right parts bin.

I'm of the view that collectors want to know what gun thy have - particularly those who are new to S&W collecting. Its never going to be easy to reconcile a gun like Lee's with N&J. 58000 was the introduction of the model of 1905 -- not the 1905 1st change. Its first engineering change comes at 62450, which just happens to be the 2nd engineering change to the model of 1902. It just is. And yet the guns are always, engineering-wise, identical. How can that be explained to anyone ?!

Another way of thinking about all of this is -- If N&J waits until 62450 to recognize the model of 1905, then of course its going to have problems correctly naming a square butt with a serial number earlier than 62450. Likewise, if N&J does away with the 1902 designation after 62450, then of course its gong to have problems correctly naming a round butt with a serial number after 62450.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
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Bruce

That's a gun that one might consider for re-plating. The nice thing about re-plating is that it always comes out the right color, and is reasonably hard to spot if its done correctly, as Ford's does. Also, the hammer, trigger, and extractor nob look to be in good condition, and so would not need to be re-case-colored.

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
OOOooo... handn't really thought of rehab'ing the old thing.

Oh and name's Bryan rather than Bruce, but that's alright. I've actually been called bad names, hah!

Thanks a lot Mike, for giving me another project to ponder.
 
Aha--seems like we're at it again. May I point out that I never wrote anything about 4-screw vs 5-screw, but if people want to look at it that way, why not? I can contend that if it is a 4-screw in the 58000-62449 range it is a 1902 model, and from 62450 upward it is a 5-screw and therefore a 1905 model, regardless of butt configuration.

McHenry & Roper's book I think was the first one about collecting S&W. Neal & Jinks came next, then Jinks' on the history of S&W, followed by the various editions of the SCSW.

Does anyone among the fraternity have S&W advertisements dating from November 1904 into the spring of 1905 announcing the availability of the square butt M&P? If so, I'd like to see if such ads use the term "1905 Model."

The engineering change to the cylinder stop with the related 5th screw at s/n 62450 was made to both round and square butt frames above that number. We all know that S&W stopped referring to 1902 and 1905 around the 3rd change and just cataloged it as "M&P" with two different butt types available.

It seems silly to me (for collector purposes) to call a round butt a 1902 first change and a square butt with identical lockwork a 1905 model. In that case, a round butt model of the 1930s would have to be called a 1902 Fifth Change , would it not? And what happens to the post-WW2 models with the revised safety block & letter-prefix serials?

I think that IF the factory did not begin to use the "1905" term until AFTER the addition of the revised cylinder stop (5th screw), that the square butt frames between 58000 and 62450 can (and should) be accurately described as 1902 First Change guns.
 
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I can contend that if it is a 4-screw in the 58000-62449 range it is a 1902 model, and from 62450 upward it is a 5-screw and therefore a 1905 model, regardless of butt configuration.


62450 is 1905 to 1906. 220,000 is in the range of 1913 to 1915. Lets see what the catalogs say about the upper end of this range. The catalogs were the primary way that the guns were sold, so they tell me what the factory thought it was making and selling.

Here are three pictures from the 1913-1915 Three Pirates Catalog. The first picture is pages 24 and 25.

mikepriwer-albums-mlp-17-rarities-picture18807-20180903-165924-a.jpg


The next two pictures are close-ups of the upper part of each page.

mikepriwer-albums-mlp-17-rarities-picture18808-20180903-165945-a.jpg


mikepriwer-albums-mlp-17-rarities-picture18809-20180903-165957-a.jpg


It's clear to me that, 10 years after the introduction of the Model of 1905, both the 1902 and 1905 were being sold as two separate models. In this context, I don't understand the above quote. The factory certainly didn't think that the Model of 1902 disappeared around 1905.


In fact, it never did disappear. Up until the late 1960's, at least, there are always two different models, depending only on butt configuration.


Mike Priwer
 
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38 M&P Round Butt 4" Blue SN: 468688

Mike, According to my notes, I have one ANIB from a 2000 Devine auction, 4" round butt, SN: 468688. I have it marked as a 1905/4th Round Butt. I purchased it then, solely because of the high SN round butt and the impeccable condition. I do not have noted how much I paid but it wasn't cheap back in year 2000 prices, but wasn't insane money. I recall having some stiff competition bidding on it.

Now I have to to look for it. BRB.

I'm back, YUPPERS, the serial number is correct, 4" Round Butt, 38 Special M&P 468688, purchased at a Devine Auction in 2000.

I figure this serial number has to be well into the 1920s. One of those I haven't lettered. My son just asked Roy for a ship date request on it.

I inventoried it as a 1905/4th just because of the serial number but what is it REALLY ?

What do you make of this ?
 
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