Model 1902 M&P in 38spl HELP

[DWalt]

SN: 468688

It likely shipped around late 1923 but possibly somewhat later as S&W did not ship in SN order. I list 4664xx as shipping in 10/1923 so yours would necessarily have been manufactured no later than sometime in 1923 regardless of when it was actually shipped. In any event, by that time S&W would have called it the "Military and Police Model, round butt." The Model 1902/1905 nomenclature died at the factory around 1914-15, excluding the fact that some modern collectors continue to use "Model of 1905" to describe M&Ps made 25 to 30 years after that time.

 

[glowe]

. . . Does anyone among the fraternity have S&W advertisements dating from November 1904 into the spring of 1905 announcing the availability of the square butt M&P? If so, I'd like to see if such ads use the term "1905 Model."

The first image is from a 1905 catalog, but I do not have the text that was on the next page. The second is a price list from January 1, 1906 with 4 different model M&Ps. Hard to read, but the first is a 32 WCF Model 1902, the second is a 32 WCF square handle Model 1905, the third is a 38 M&P Model 1902, and the 4th is a 38 M&P square handle Model 1905. Price difference was $1.00 more for the Model 1905. Last picture is a 1903 catalog for the M&P.

 

[Muley Gil]

Time to stir the s...uh, pot.

Did anyone else notice that glowe's catalog referred to these revolvers as being "Hand Extractor", not "Hand Ejector"?

 

[DWalt]

Time to stir the s...uh, pot.

Did anyone else notice that glowe's catalog referred to these revolvers as being "Hand Extractor", not "Hand Ejector"?

Could well be the case as the proper terminology for the rod is "Extractor Rod," not "Ejector Rod."

 

[Absalom]

Could well be the case as the proper terminology for the rod is "Extractor Rod," not "Ejector Rod."

If that is the case, the factory was not consistent either.

The attached pages from the 1903 revolver catalog use hand ejector and ejector rod.

 

[glowe]

Could well be the case as the proper terminology for the rod is "Extractor Rod," not "Ejector Rod."

Who says???

I have always wondered why either term is applied, since both are somewhat inaccurate. In shotguns, the extractor pushes the empty to the rear and an ejector applies enough force to hurl the empty out of the gun. If an extractor gun is pointed upward, the empties usually fall out of the chambers, somewhat like a S&W. The cases are never hurled out onto the ground, but only pushed out. I always look at ejection as a term only used with a major force applied to accomplish the task

 

[DWalt]

Parts lists usually use extractor rod. So does Brownell's: BROWNELLS EXTRACTOR ROD TOOL FOR S&W | Brownells

 

[model3sw]

Stop, stop, stop .... my sides hurt from laughing so hard.

 

[model3sw]

SN: 468688

It likely shipped around late 1923 but possibly somewhat later as S&W did not ship in SN order. I list 4664xx as shipping in 10/1923 so yours would necessarily have been manufactured no later than sometime in 1923 regardless of when it was actually shipped. In any event, by that time S&W would have called it the "Military and Police Model, round butt." The Model 1902/1905 nomenclature died at the factory around 1914-15, excluding the fact that some modern collectors continue to use "Model of 1905" to describe M&Ps made 25 to 30 years after that time.

Isn't 468688 a exceptionally high serial number for a round butt M&P ?

 

[Waveski]

My evening prayers usually include something hopeful and/or reassuring. Tonight I will include the following:

"A model of 1902 has a round butt. A model of 1905 has a square butt. THAT is the definitive difference."

 

[Absalom]

Isn't 468688 a exceptionally high serial number for a round butt M&P ?

Why would it be? The round-butt variant was available continuously, except for the war years, albeit not a very high percentage of production, and 468688 would put the gun in the mid-1920s.

 

[mikepriwer]

model3sw

Your serial number, as noted, would have been shipped about 1923. Here is a picture from the D3 catalog, dated March 1923.

The gun would have been called a Military & Police, Round Butt, as of 1913. Previously, it would have been Model of 1902.

As to your comment/question about '1905 4th/round butt', that is sheer nonsense. Most of us understand that '1905' means square butt. That is what the historian says. In this context, a 1905 4th change is a square butt gun. If anything, it should be known as a 1902 5th change, meaning the 5th engineering change to the model of 1902. 1902's should be one engineering change ahead of the model of 1905, because the 1905 was introduced after the 1st engineering change to the 1902. Ie, a 1905 is, engineering-change-wise, identical to a 1902 1st change.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[model3sw]

model3sw

Your serial number, as noted, would have been shipped about 1923. Here is a picture from the D3 catalog, dated March 1923.

The gun would have been called a Military & Police, Round Butt. Its name, as of 1913, would have been Model of 1902.

As to your comment/question about '1905 4th/round butt', that is sheer nonsense. Most of us understand that '1905' means square butt. That is what the historian says. In this context, a 1905 4th change is a square butt gun.

If anything, it should be known as a 1902 5th change, meaning the 5th engineering change to the model of 1902.

1902's should be one engineering change ahead of the model of 1905, because the 1905 was introduced after the 1st engineering change to the 1902. Ie, a 1905 is, engineering-change-wise, identical to a 1902 1st change.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike, you answered the next question I was going to ask of "what is the appropriate designation for this model ?" Thank you. Sal Raimondi

 

[model3sw]

.38 M&P serial 468688 was shipped in March 1924

Mike, According to my notes, I have one ANIB from a 2000 Devine auction, 4" round butt, SN: 468688. I have it marked as a 1905/4th Round Butt. I purchased it then, solely because of the high SN round butt and the impeccable condition. I do not have noted how much I paid but it wasn't cheap back in year 2000 prices, but wasn't insane money. I recall having some stiff competition bidding on it.

Now I have to to look for it. BRB.

I'm back, YUPPERS, the serial number is correct, 4" Round Butt, 38 Special M&P 468688, purchased at a Devine Auction in 2000.

I figure this serial number has to be well into the 1920s. One of those I haven't lettered. My son just asked Roy for a ship date request on it.

I inventoried it as a 1905/4th just because of the serial number but what is it REALLY ?

What do you make of this ?

Update from Roy: Sal, .38 M&P serial 468688 was shipped in March 1924. I hope that this helps. Roy

 

[rwt1405]

Thanks guys, I'm recovering from a concussion and this thread just knocked me back about 5 weeks in my therapy.

Really, this kind of thread is exactly what makes this forum so great, I could read this all day, thanks guys for helping me to learn more about these great revolvers!

 

[jw mathews]

Thanks to Mike & Gary for the catalog images. It is interesting that the square butt guns cost a dollar more than the round butt guns But we still haven't seen any ads from the period 11/1904-5/1905. The catalogs shown by Mike Priwer dating from 1905-'6 admittedly use "1902" for the round butt and "1905" for the square butt. But if the factory's intent was to show current production offerings (at that time), BOTH rb & sb guns would have the 5th screw (in front of the trigger guard). I think we all can agree on that point?

It seems to me that the appellation of "1905" to the square butt frame is an advertising gimmick (hype) on the part of S&W to promote the new frame forging (increased tooling cost to recover). I realize that my use of "1902 (First Change, to be completely accurate) Square Butt" bothers Mike (and maybe some others) but for purposes of collecting, it bothers me that guns using the same internal lockwork are being described as different models.

The older catalogs in the above postings describe the guns as ".38 Military." The "1902" and "1905" designations are subheadings in smaller print. The "M&P" designation came a few years later. Thus, if one insists on going by catalog designations, it seems logical that guns made prior to WWI should be called ".38 Military" as the "Military & Police" did not exist at that time.

So, a "purist" wanting to be accurate to old catalog descriptions, should not describe a K-frame as an "M&P" unless it was made AFTER the factory began adding the "Police" designation in whatever year that occurred!

Others, including Mike & Gary, would probably agree that I am NOT a catalog "purist." I have no objection to a K-frame made prior to 1915 being called an "M&P" even though there was no such thing prior to that time. I think using the term ".38 Military" would be silly even though that language would be 100% accurate per the old catalogs.

It is true that 1,000 of the 1899 models were sold to the US Navy & another 1,000 later to the US Army, but a small order for trials does not constitute widespread military use of those early revolvers. I think we all might agree that the "Military" term became fully justified when S&W began supplying the K-frame 38/200s to the British early in WW2, followed by the "Victory" designated serials for both the UK and US governments. But that does not resolve the inaccurate terminology prior to 1915 or so.

So, what do the rest of you have to say now?

 

[Muley Gil]

"It is true that 1,000 of the 1899 models were sold to the US Navy & another 1,000 later to the US Army, but a small order for trials does not constitute widespread military use of those early revolvers."

In 1900, 1000 revolvers would have armed all of the officers of the Marine Corps and most of the noncoms as well.

 

[Absalom]

In 1900, 1000 revolvers would have armed all of the officers of the Marine Corps and most of the noncoms as well.

One of the interesting things is that I've never found much information about who actually got these and if they even ever were issued as regular sidearms to anyone. The only "official" use in which I've encountered some (I don'r recall whether the Army or Navy version, but Pate mentions them) was as early emergency shipments to Britain in WW II, along with old refurbished .38 DA Colts.

 

[S&WsRsweet]

I am new to all this but I grew up around Smith and Wesson revolvers ,handling and shooting my next door neighbor did all the work for the local police department and I hung out at his small shop as much as possible and " thought " I knew something about revolvers in general and Smiths in particular but have learned since finding this forum that I know nothing . So I can only imagine the information overload for someone who knows absolutely nothing and asks about the ok'd revolver they inherited from grandpa. Most probabaly are hoping to get the answer that their revolver is very rare and will fetch enough dollars they can retire to an island somewhere and with tne general 200 to 600 $ valuation their hopes and dreams are dashed but for some if you hook them just right and give them a little information just enough to keep them curious ,then a little more then a little more then let Mr Ralph start throwing in target variations and Mr Sal hitting them up with some special order type stuff then oh yea then Lee delves into some real odd stuff and oh yea Muley Gil he uses the answer but with a question attatched thing just to keep it interesting and first thing you know you guys have gone and hooked a brand new fellow into the fold ,at least that's how it happened with me so keep up the good work and trust me some will not read much past the 1902 / 1905 hand ejector valued at 500 + or - depending but once in a while you will get someone who gets caught up in it all and BAM new member . If I left you out please don't take it wrong I just can't type fast at all and have a lot of catching up to do as I have been away a couple of weeks .Thanks to the op for starting ths thread and thanks to all who have added information .Putting my duct tape and foil hat on now and moving on .

 

[Waveski]

Ummmmm.....