Model 1917 sells for $5,000.00+

[steelslaver]

I wonder if the picture is of the actual gun. Maybe they substituted one of a regular 1917.

I agree the one in photo has way to big of gap. If the factory was to built a 45 colt I would think they would chamber a something like a 38-44 or 44 cylinder to 45 colt and not just ream a acp cylinder deeper. Doing that is pretty bubba and with the 45 Colt having so small of rim it could easy lead to failed ejection.

 

[mikepriwer]

There is some room to explore the factory letter. It appears to not have the
embossing. Possibly its a fake, although if someone were going to go to the
trouble of faking a letter, you'd think they would come up with some kind of
embossing stamp.

If the letter is accurate, then while it probably was worked on in the service
department, it was made as a 45 Colt, and I do not consider that to be a modification.
That was OEM, as we say today.

Its possible that there were two cylinders, or its possible that someone had a 45acp
cylinder made up, and that is what is on the gun now.

The proof of the pudding is - will the gun chamber a 45 Colt cartridge, in some manner
or other. If it will, then that is what it is. If it does not, then that is not what it is.

Regards, Mike

 

[linde]

. . . I also have concerns about this revolver, even despite what the factory letter says, mainly because I doubt that S&W would do a conversion like this on a stock M1917 .45 ACP cylinder. They would probably have made up a correct .45 Colt cylinder for it, and marked it as such.

Although we don't have a work order to confirm, there is strong evidence that Commercial Model 1917 s/n 179014 was returned to the factory in July 1949 and re-chambered in .45 Colt . . . obviously by fitting a replacement cylinder.

The numbered-to-the-gun replacement .45 Colt cylinder measures 1.570" in length . . . 0.030" longer than the normal .45 ACP cylinder. Headspace measures right at 0.050" . . . not sure how that compares with the .45 ACP headspace.

I too will be anxious to hear more on the example posted in the original post.

Russ

 

[steelslaver]

Nominal space between a 45 ACP cylinder and the recoil shield should be .080 or the additional .030 of length you noted in cylinders. I have cut a couple of 45 colt cylinders to accept ACP in full moons and that .030 is the target depth for the relief cut.

 

[DWalt]

0.03" is the difference between the nominal rim thicknesses of the .45 AR and the .45 Colt, therefore, it would also be the expected difference between .45 ACP and .45 Colt cylinder lengths in the same frame to achieve the same headspace measurement.

I have had a few jams of .45 Colt cases in my Colt M1909s (I actually have two of them), but with a little care, there is no problem. That's why the Army wanted a larger rim diameter for the M1909 cartridges, to achieve greater extraction reliability than could be achieved with the .45 Colt rim diameter.

 

[DWalt]

"Here is a question for the experts. The letters I have are embossed on the signature. It appears from the photos this revolvers letter doesn't show any embossing. Were letters always embossed or is that something that has changed over the years?"

That's a good question, and I don't have an answer. Thinking back, most letters I have seen have the raised seal, but I have no idea of whether that's a standard feature on the original letters or not. A copy of an original letter would probably not show the seal. I am not a document examiner, but I do note that there are several easily discernible differences in the Roy Jinks signatures between the two letters shown.

 

[mikepriwer]

As Jim noted earlier, the data provided for the gun clearly specifies 45 acp. Furthermore,
in the write-up accompanying the specifications, there is no mention of 45 Colt. This is
very strange for such an unusual gun. It almost suggests that this gun is not setup
for 45 Colt. It does say that the letter verifies the overall configuration. At this point,
I'm not sure what this really means.

Here is the data and write-up:

Serial #: 181086 Manufacturer: Smith & Wesson
Model: 1917 Type: Revolver
Gauge: 45 ACP Catalog Page: 211
Barrel Length: 5 1/2 inch round Finish: blue
Grip: walnut Stock: N/A
Class: Curio & Relic Handgun
Condition Rating:
Description:
According to the included Roy Jinks factory letter, this revolver was shipped out of the factory on 16 August 1928, destined for G.W. Harris, care of the Santa Fe Railroad in Chicago, Illinois. The letter also verifies the overall configuration. Information on Mr. Harris is limited, bute records from the 1910s place him as the Chief Engineer on the president's staff for the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway (typically shortened to just "Santa Fe"), having started out as a rodman and worked his way up the ranks. Fixed sights, with a pinned barrel, 5-screw frame, matching assembly numbers on the frame and crane, matching serial numbers on the cylinder and frame, and proper markings overall. Fitted with a casehardened hammer, trigger and lanyard swivel, a pair of checkered grips, and two blued steel half-moon clips.
Condition: Excellent with 95% plus original blue finish showing some light edge wear and handling marks overall. The grips are excellent with a few light dings. Mechanically excellent.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[les.b]

Wow. Just this thread typifies why I love this forum. I'm an educator, and I can tell you that you just can't buy this kind of education. I have an extensive firearms library, and some of the works I have read multiple times. But on this forum, I learn new stuff every day. Some of the things you fellows observed and commented on I might have observed or figured out myself, but maybe not. It's a pleasure to follow these threads and absorb new material every day. Keep up the good work!

By the way, in my humble opinion, there is no way that that is a .45 Colt cylinder. It looks exactly like a .45 ACP cylinder, and the gap looks just like a standard gap on a .45 ACP configured 1917. I just can't imagine that it will chamber, or was modified to chamber a .45 Colt cartridge. If it had been set up at the factory for .45 Colt, surely it would not have been done by modifying a .45 ACP cylinder, when they could have installed one of the correct dimensions. Something just doesn't seem right here. Is it possible that there could be (horrors) an error in the factory records? It doesn't seem likely, but something just doesn't fit.

 

[mikepriwer]

Les

There could be an error in the factory letter. To me, the auction catalog write-up
is describing the gun as 45 acp. If the gun really were 45 Colt, I would expect a lot
more "excitement" in the write-up.

It certainly is a possibility that the gun is 45 acp, and that would be consistent with
the write-up. The final price of the gun suggests that the buyer is expecting a
45 Colt. If the gun agree's with the description, its going to be a problem to return.

Mike Priwer

 

[flundertaker]

I don't know about candy from a baby but it sure appears someone got taken. I hope the buyer did their due diligence and that the seller was upfront and honest about what he was selling. if the pros here can't agree on what the gun is from the pics and detail that really does not bode well for a positive outcome.

 

[Muley Gil]

"181086 shipped on August 16, 1928."

My commercial 1917, 180692, shipped in January 1936.

Mine was waaay back in the safe.

 

[DWalt]

As the auction house did not misrepresent the caliber in their descriptive statements, getting a refund might be somewhat difficult. My guess is that while it may have been shipped originally with a .45 Colt cylinder, it may have been sent back to the factory at a later date to get a .45 ACP cylinder fitted. No idea if any factory records are available to support that thesis. But if S&W did it, there should be (at least) a date stamping on the grip frame. Too many questionable possibilities on this one for most to buy it at anywhere near that price without much better evidence.

 

[jmten]

As the auction house did not misrepresent the caliber in their descriptive statements, getting a refund might be somewhat difficult. My guess is that while it may have been shipped originally with a .45 Colt cylinder, it may have been sent back to the factory at a later date to get a .45 ACP cylinder fitted. No idea if any factory records are available to support that thesis. But if S&W did it, there should be (at least) a date stamping on the grip frame. Too many questionable possibilities on this one for most to buy it at anywhere near that price without much better evidence.

The stated caliber in the description was .45ACP however, because 99.9% of all 1917's came in that caliber it would be an easy mistake. The factory letter states "this hand gun was specially chambered in the .45 Colt caliber" and the auction house in their description states "The factory letter also verifies the overall configuration of this gun" If the auction house knew that the gun was configured for .45ACP I don't think they would have made such a statement. In addition if they knew it was presently chambered in .45ACP any reputable auction house would clearly state the discrepancy between the letter and the guns current configuration.
This certainly has become very interesting. Does anyone on this site know Roy Jinks well enough to ask him his comments?

 

[JSR III]

I don't know about the embossing but I can tell you that the signature looks real. Auction houses are notorious for making posting errors and even when members of the S&WCA contact them to make corrections, many times they ignore the information. Especially if it diminishes the potential value in any way.

It appears from their pre sale price estimate that they may have either overlooked the unusual caliber or had no idea that it was rare.

Either way it is an interesting gun but I'm not sure I would have paid that much of a premium without real proof.

I own a club gun model 1917 with the typical "0" prefix serial number that was given by S&W to the Chief Army inspector that was in charge of overseeing the 1917 production at S&W. The fact that S&W made a gift to the chief inspector of an example of the very gun he was overseeing for the government makes the gun very unusual in my estimation. One wonders what if anything S&W was expecting in return. To me, that gun is more rare than one in .45 colt but that is merely my opinion.

 

[Toyman]

Possibly Bill Cross could do some research in S&WHF files to clear this up. Are you listening Bill ?

 

[paplinker]

About the seal. Is it possible the auction company printed a copy of the factory letter instead of taking a picture of it?
The copier did not pick up the raised seal?
Not real computer savy but maybe its quicker for them or reads easier.

 

[bmg60]

Hi
I have been reading all the posts on this gun. This is a very simple answer
for this gun. Some time after it was shipped the original Cyl. some how got damaged and it was replaced with a 45 ACP. If you look at the Cyl. stop if is still cut for the 45 Colt.
Pre war 45 colt Cyl. are a scarce item. there were estimated about 30 or 40 made with original 45 Colt Cyl.. There were 18 Heavy duties made in 45 colt, and 15 made in the 2nd model 455 and there were some Specials made up. If the gun was sent back to have a Cly replaced the factory answer would have been no 45 Colt Cyls. available.
The next step would be to replace it with a 45 ACP Cyl.
end of story. I have 3 Pre War Original 45 Colts and they are not for sale.
Jim Fisher

 

[DWalt]

Hi
I have been reading all the posts on this gun. This is a very simple answer
for this gun. Some time after it was shipped the original Cyl. some how got damaged and it was replaced with a 45 ACP. If you look at the Cyl. stop if is still cut for the 45 Colt.
Pre war 45 colt Cyl. are a scarce item. there were estimated about 30 or 40 made with original 45 Colt Cyl.. There were 18 Heavy duties made in 45 colt, and 15 made in the 2nd model 455 and there were some Specials made up. If the gun was sent back to have a Cly replaced the factory answer would have been no 45 Colt Cyls. available.
The next step would be to replace it with a 45 ACP Cyl.
end of story. I have 3 Pre War Original 45 Colts and they are not for sale.
Jim Fisher

That's essentially the opinion which I expressed earlier. If S&W replaced the original .45 Colt cylinder (assuming that there was one, which is apparently no longer with the gun), the .45 ACP replacement cylinder would also have been factory-numbered to the frame. If so, I personally would consider any rarity premium attached to it to have vanished, basically worth the same as any other commercial M1917 of the same era and in the same condition.

 

[les.b]

Just saw this thread. Picture of newly minted letter, and the signature has the embossing. Not sure if this relates or not to any of the above speculations.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...0-nycpd-arkansas-state-police-heavy-duty.html

 

[iskra]

I join the educator in the remark that it's all educational and fascinating! I'd only offer a side commentary going to procedures rather than substantive argument as to what is and isn't concerning the gun itself.

In such an auction as here, typically the auction rules and terms as set forth prevail. That as in respect of the seller, bidders, buyer and auction house. It appears from the discussion here, the photo and the auction description reasonably comport. That is, are not in controversy with one another. The discrepancy appears to exist between the photo and the representation in the factory letter, a document which describes a gun as shipped.

Typically any discrepancy between 'official' (for want of a better term) auction description and materials which may be appended, but extrinsic to the 'official' auction description, would likely be said at best ONLY to place a knowledgeable potential bidder on "inquiry notice" concerning the apparently discrepant matter. Such to be pursued/resolved prior to bidding IF the potential bidder considered it material to their bidding decision.

It would seem likely this would be the exact position of the auction house IF they don't have even more specific disclaimers concerning their involvement in the seller actual description content.

The same buyer 'inquiry notice' claim would also likely offer a defensible legal position for the seller. While it might arguably be an unethical circumstance to advance such obviously contradictory material accompanying a sales descriptions without comment, the seller would likely claim that he/she simply placed the letter for the 'evaluation' of bidders. Further, that the letter clearly described the revolver as it was shipped and did not address subsequent dispositions/modifications, etc.

A large discussion of ethics could follow at this point, yet presumably irrelevant to the legal positions of the involved parties. The operative legal issues concern seller obligations of any sort falling short of meeting threshold legal requirements.

Last and not directly speaking to the instant matter, I personally feel there is entirely too much 'face value' acceptance/reliance upon "factory letters", a commodity easily susceptible of forgery. (There are ways to lessen this hazard such as instituting a system of serialed letters with available verification procedures. But such not a point discussion for this Thread.)

And finally my disclaimer concerning the above thoughts hastily hammered out. Nothing here is intended as legal opinion or advice, nor should any portion be taken as such. Substantive law and procedures of various jurisdictions differ and it's really impossible to form viable legal theories or opinions short of far more information and legal research.

Rather all here (Whew!)...
Just my take