Model 29 blow up

[Art Doc]

I didn't say NEVER send the gun to S&W. just wait until they settle before you turn it over to them. If you send them the gun before reaching an agreement you will never see the gun again and you may get no compensation. I have heard of it happening.

sw282- Read my signature line, dude.

 

[lrrifleman]

Fortunately, the OP wasn't injured.

I am not an engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't S&W have a problem in the late 1970s and early 1980s with the timing on their Model 29s? The fact that the cylinder wasn't destroyed and the back strap peeled back, I would suspect that the ammo wasn't an issue with respect to an overload. A squib load followed by a normal round might.

However, look at the geometry. If I remember correctly, Smith cylinders rotate counter clockwise. If the cylinder didn't lock up, or over traveled, an off center round catching on the side of the forcing cone could have blown the front of the frame and barrel off.

Just adding an observation, not intending on muddying the waters!

 

[BC38]

Fortunately, the OP wasn't injured.

I am not an engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't S&W have a problem in the late 1970s and early 1980s with the timing on their Model 29s? The fact that the cylinder wasn't destroyed and the back strap peeled back, I would suspect that the ammo wasn't an issue with respect to an overload. A squib load followed by a normal round might.

However, look at the geometry. If I remember correctly, Smith cylinders rotate counter clockwise. If the cylinder didn't lock up, or over traveled, an off center round catching on the side of the forcing cone could have blown the front of the frame and barrel off.

Just adding an observation, not intending on muddying the waters!

FWIW, I am an engineer and this all makes sense with one minor exception. If the cylinder were that far off, wouldn't the firing pin miss the primer? Not saying it isn't possible, but the cylinder and bore can't be misaligned by more than about 1/16" and still have the firing pin hit the primer and light off the round - can it? I don't think most primers will ignite if hit right at the edge of the primer pocket, will they?

Campin Buddy - can you post a picture of the headstamp of the brass from the round that did the damage?

 

[xray 99]

I had a squib load with factory Winchester duty ammo. I was shooting rapid fire and did not notice it but luckily the next round would not chamber as the squib was still partially in the chamber. I have fired allot of ammo in my life and this was the only squib I ever had.

This happened to me with 9mm Silvertip.

 

[Arisin Wind]

Looks like what used to happen with early Ruger Redhawks. Some had "blown apart" just like this one. No barrel bulge, no cylinder breech. The issue turned out to be over torqued barrels.

 

[flintsghost]

The reason is they are carrying their ammo in mags and carriers not leaving it lying around on a bench for the sun to beat on. The sun shining on a box of ammo can raise the pressure considerably. That's what happened to the gun and ammo we were using. Because it was being used for an advertising gimic leading into the Shot Show. The temperature was high and the gun and ammo were being photographed.

I understand the Mil Spec powders are much more temperature stable, our local power co ADi that makes powders for Hodgden, make all sorts of wild claims about how insensitive their powders are...i fired a lot of 5.56 and 7.62 that has been baked in the sun all day never an issue.......assuming the powder was sensitive to being warmed up...will another 50ft/sec extra MV really blow up a gun...I dont know

I doubt that 50fps added would cause a blow. Military ammunition has a lot of built in safety factors, not the least of which is that it is not loaded right to the top of the pressure limit. The ammo I was testing, black tip glazers, were loaded to the top of pressure limit and then some. .44magnum on the other hand is usually loaded about as hot as one can stand and still be safe, especially in some brands. It would be a stronger candidate for an overpressure blow than most, especially if left out in the sun on the bench as this person's ammo obviously was from the pictures. The US Military went away from the Reloader series of powders in their M118LR because of it's proclivity to increase pressure in heated ambient temperatures and become unstable. So even their tests indicated a problem.

Interestingly, the Beretta M9 in use by US forces has had such a problem with slide fractures while shooting that Beretta had to add a safety device to capture the rear of the slide. More than just a handful of shooters have been killed or injured due to the fractured slides. Many have assumed it was a metallurgical problem but what if it was an ammo overpressure issue. Military nato spec 9mm 147 grain is loaded about as hot as it can be loaded to high +P specs. The Beretta slide issue was supposed to be solved with the retention device and yet last year a Marine in the dog handler school at Lackland AFB was severely injured when his Beretta slide fractured and the rear piece hit him in the chest, nearly killing him. The gun had the retention device but it didn't work. It gets pretty hot in San Antonio.

 

[cmj8591]

This was a bore obstruction just in front of the frame. The gun burst because the fired bullet smashed into the obstruction causing the moving bullet to deform. The momentum carries the force forward. The bullet deformation is sudden and violent and creates a huge amount of pressure against the inside the barrel. In this case, the weakest link was the frame on the yoke side and that gave way first causing the failure. Had the round been over pressure, the damage would have occurred in the chamber not the barrel. My guess is that the previous shot had been a squib load. That is the most likely explanation. Anything is possible but it would be strange for a weakness in the barrel to cause this type of failure. I've seen guns with cracked frames or cracked barrels in the throat area shoot for many hundreds of rounds without coming apart.

 

[dirtybarry]

FWIW, I am an engineer and this all makes sense with one minor exception. If the cylinder were that far off, wouldn't the firing pin miss the primer? Not saying it isn't possible, but the cylinder and bore can't be misaligned by more than about 1/16" and still have the firing pin hit the primer and light off the round - can it? I don't think most primers will ignite if hit right at the edge of the primer pocket, will they?

Campin Buddy - can you post a picture of the headstamp of the brass from the round that did the damage?

Someone suggested this very thing about my failure too. But all three of the final rounds looked identical and no different than any of the other thousands that were fired.
Another suggestion from Hodgdon Powder was that possibly because of the fast burn rate of H-110 powder that the base of the plated bullet that I use was mushrooming and then stressing the forcing cone as it was swaged back into place. However, measuring the cylinder chambers, the front end measures less than .431" inside diameter, so how much could the bullet expand in the less than 1/4" distance from the end of the cylinder to the lands of the rifling? If it expanded that much that easy, I would think that it would mush back into place just as easy. And why wouldn't the cylinder break first? Far-fetched but at least a slim possibility.
In the OP's case though, I'm pretty sure that the Fiocchi bullets are going to be stronger and I doubt that they're going to be loaded any hotter than my near max reloads. And his failed even faster than mine did.
We compared serial #'s but they are pretty far apart. Even though mine was bought about 8 months before his, mine was much older production. His was built in Sept 2015 and mine appears to have been made in 2012.

 

[garbler]

It really is mind boggling how many jump in with answers based on three poor photos and little or no background info. Vigilante failure analysis.

I really can't say how this will turn out but can offer some insights from my experience and past history and probabilities. I would therefore consider the following.

If you send them the gun, parts and associated pieces you will most likely never get them back, at least not all of it or in the same condition . They will most likely do an in-house inspection then depending on what they find have one of their testing labs conduct a failure analysis. I'm sure they would not in-house test as this would be legally imprudent

If the gun is sent to them without specific terms to protect the evidence it is very likely you will receive the gun back less a few critical pieces or parts. If they request permission for various lab tests, and they should ask since it is your property, insure that they are non-destructive.

Ask them to provide you with the name of the testing lab if they intend to use one. If you need to, suggest your own lab. There are plenty of test labs around but the smaller ones are more approachable and easier to work with. However most of your smaller labs will not have a SEM ( scanning electron microscope ) however this equipment is often not necessary to nail down gun failures of this type.

I can't imagine S&W settling this accident without physically having the gun in hand. Doing so would be legally and otherwise irresponsible. This therefore puts both sides in a bit of a stand off. You claim your gun or their product failed but they have no proof without physical evidence of the blown up gun. You are wisely reluctant to hand over your gun realizing that in doing so you lose all control and are at the full mercy of the factory

If a stand-off does occur then the only fail safe way to handle this is to involve a credible third party with appropriate technical depth. A lab, a firearms expert, attorney etc etc. And a complete set of high resolution macro images of all parts and pieces. This neutral third party can keep the playing field level and if this whole incident gets ugly and you feel it is necessary to pursue legal satisfaction this makes you look good.

No, S&W will not issue a report of findings or make any statements revealing the gun's failure unless forced to or it can be used to their advantage. This failure was much too dangerous and potentially catastrophic to go public with. No manufacturer is perfect and no matter how a bunch of guys on a forum feel this is about business first. Unless they want to play at this like Remington has with their defective triggers they will settle with you if you can show them they are at fault and hope this unfortunate incident will fade away with time.

 

[dirtybarry]

Given the potential liability issues, that's what I thought. However, they basically told me to go pound sand. I fear the OP will receive the same (lack of) consideration.

 

[cmj8591]

If a stand-off does occur then the only fail safe way to handle this is to involve a credible third party with appropriate technical depth. A lab, a firearms expert, attorney etc etc. And a complete set of high resolution macro images of all parts and pieces. This neutral third party can keep the playing field level and if this whole incident gets ugly and you feel it is necessary to pursue legal satisfaction this makes you look good.

By the time you are done with this, you will have spent enough money to buy a case of model 29's. If the lab tells you that the gun was sound and the failure was caused by the ammo, or if they can not determine the reason for the failure, you just invested a lot of funds for nothing. I still think that it will be hard to fault the gun after using it for 600+ rounds without failure.

Contact Smith and send it to them. No, you won't get it back. They are not going to return a defective gun to anyone. Besides, it's broken beyond repair. You are never going to shoot it again anyways. They will test it. Their metallurgy lab is one of the best in the industry. If it was the gun, they will replace it for you. If it was the ammo, they will offer you a gun at a discount. Unless you lost an eye or a finger and a large law suit was anticipated, there's no point looking for lawyers or independent experts. This is not advise based on conjecture, it is advise based on experience. Good luck with the ammo company. You will be lucky if they send you a coupon for a free box of ammo.

 

[Granite Stater]

Interestingly, the Beretta M9 in use by US forces has had such a problem with slide fractures while shooting that Beretta had to add a safety device to capture the rear of the slide. More than just a handful of shooters have been killed or injured due to the fractured slides. Many have assumed it was a metallurgical problem but what if it was an ammo overpressure issue. Military nato spec 9mm 147 grain is loaded about as hot as it can be loaded to high +P specs. The Beretta slide issue was supposed to be solved with the retention device and yet last year a Marine in the dog handler school at Lackland AFB was severely injured when his Beretta slide fractured and the rear piece hit him in the chest, nearly killing him. The gun had the retention device but it didn't work. It gets pretty hot in San Antonio.[/QUOTE]

When the handful of M9 slides failed it was a torture test by NSW specifically designed to break the gun. They wanted to see what it would take to do the damage. They have done the same with other firearms. This was done on purpose, they just didn't expect the slide to come off. Beretta did add a part to prevent this in the future.

 

[Kho]

By the time you are done with this, you will have spent enough money to buy a case of model 29's. If the lab tells you that the gun was sound and the failure was caused by the ammo, or if they can not determine the reason for the failure, you just invested a lot of funds for nothing. I still think that it will be hard to fault the gun after using it for 600+ rounds without failure.

Contact Smith and send it to them. No, you won't get it back. They are not going to return a defective gun to anyone. Besides, it's broken beyond repair. You are never going to shoot it again anyways. They will test it. Their metallurgy lab is one of the best in the industry. If it was the gun, they will replace it for you. If it was the ammo, they will offer you a gun at a discount. Unless you lost an eye or a finger and a large law suit was anticipated, there's no point looking for lawyers or independent experts. This is not advise based on conjecture, it is advise based on experience. Good luck with the ammo company. You will be lucky if they send you a coupon for a free box of ammo.

This is the most sound advice I've read so far. No disrespect intended, but some of the responses were a little too...enthusiastic...given that no one was hurt.

Like others, I'm curious to read the outcome. Good luck.

 

[garbler]

By the time you are done with this, you will have spent enough money to buy a case of model 29's. If the lab tells you that the gun was sound and the failure was caused by the ammo, or if they can not determine the reason for the failure, you just invested a lot of funds for nothing. I still think that it will be hard to fault the gun after using it for 600+ rounds without failure.
Mm
Contact Smith and send it to them. No, you won't get it back. They are not going to return a defective gun to anyone. Besides, it's broken beyond repair. You are never going to shoot it again anyways. They will test it. Their metallurgy lab is one of the best in the industry. If it was the gun, they will replace it for you. If it was the ammo, they will offer you a gun at a discount. Unless you lost an eye or a finger and a large law suit was anticipated, there's no point looking for lawyers or independent experts. This is not advise based on conjecture, it is advise based on experience. Good luck with the ammo company. You will be lucky if they send you a coupon for a free box of ammo.

If the OP feels like rolling the dice and send the the whole package fine. But there is undeniably some risk in getting real satisfaction and literally no chance of finding out what happened. What most of us have not addressed is that maybe S&W has no culpability in this at all. I disagree that it will cost a ton to take a serious stance with the factory to send them a message that you want to be treated seriously. A third party dos not have to be an Ivy League attorney or a large test lab only a person with some depth with firearms and honesty.

Re: S&W's metallurgist I will only say my wife and I know a pretty decent metallurgist from Andover, MA who applied for a position with them in around 1992-94 when Steve Melvin and the British owned the company. Things may have improved but to call them tops in the industry is beyond comprehension.

Regards

 

[Dr Denby]

Well, Campin Buddy

What's happened?

Doc

 

[Tom_R]

I doubt that 50fps added would cause a blow. Military ammunition has a lot of built in safety factors, not the least of which is that it is not loaded right to the top of the pressure limit. The ammo I was testing, black tip glazers, were loaded to the top of pressure limit and then some. .44magnum on the other hand is usually loaded about as hot as one can stand and still be safe, especially in some brands. It would be a stronger candidate for an overpressure blow than most, especially if left out in the sun on the bench as this person's ammo obviously was from the pictures. The US Military went away from the Reloader series of powders in their M118LR because of it's proclivity to increase pressure in heated ambient temperatures and become unstable. So even their tests indicated a problem.

Interestingly, the Beretta M9 in use by US forces has had such a problem with slide fractures while shooting that Beretta had to add a safety device to capture the rear of the slide. More than just a handful of shooters have been killed or injured due to the fractured slides. Many have assumed it was a metallurgical problem but what if it was an ammo overpressure issue. Military nato spec 9mm 147 grain is loaded about as hot as it can be loaded to high +P specs. The Beretta slide issue was supposed to be solved with the retention device and yet last year a Marine in the dog handler school at Lackland AFB was severely injured when his Beretta slide fractured and the rear piece hit him in the chest, nearly killing him. The gun had the retention device but it didn't work. It gets pretty hot in San Antonio.

That 9mm Ammo that was causing the issue, if I recall correctly, was specifically for MP-5 Submachine Guns, and Marines and Special Forces units were putting them in Berettas and Sigs and breaking guns, if my memory serves me correctly. This was about 20 years ago that I remember hearing about this. Beretta got a bad rap, but people were quick to point out that ammo was being put through the gun that was not meant for it, and that was why.

 

[Bob1943]

That 9mm Ammo that was causing the issue, if I recall correctly, was specifically for MP-5 Submachine Guns, and Marines and Special Forces units were putting them in Berettas and Sigs and breaking guns, if my memory serves me correctly. This was about 20 years ago that I remember hearing about this. Beretta got a bad rap, but people were quick to point out that ammo was being put through the gun that was not meant for it, and that was why.

You are exactly right. I have a 1989 Beretta 92F and wrote a letter to Beretta expressing my concern about the reported slide failure issue. They responded:
"That problem is only able to occur through the use ammunition considerably more powerful than the pistol is rated for (such as +P+, +P++, or SubMachine Gun only ammunition) combined with no maintenance at factory recommended intervals. Your pistol will provide years of safe service provided you maintain to factory standards and avoid non-recommended ammunition."

 

[Campin Buddy]

Sorry for delay gentlemen, family, work, Christmas, etc.

I've got a shipping label to send back to SW. I have been reading each of your suggestions and have carefully considered all the advice given. I don't have the funds for legal advice, I saved long enough just to buy the darn thing, nor the drive to involve an expert third party. I'm just hoping for a favorable resolution that gets me back to shooting soon-ish.

Here are some pics, apologize again for the low quality. I'm not sending back it till tomorrow eve so if there is something you'd really like to see post up and I'll try to get it before then. I haven't looked too much at the spent casings, I'll do that over the break.



Hope these help, and again I can't thank everyone enough for the knowledge and suggestions. Merry Christmas.

 

[44wheelman]

My money's on an over torqued bbl. Good luck with S&W, but
looking at that, I don't think (hope) they will give you much grief.
And a Merry Christmas to you.

 

[Carrier]

Is that rust in those pictures?