Model 29 blow up

[dirtybarry]

I wonder what ammo or load s&w uses for proof testing handguns?

It would be interesting to find out indeed.
The ID round that came with mine was a Winchester that looked just like any other.

 

[flagman1776]

I never had a squib load with my reloads. I had one with Dept issue practice ammo in a very intense live fire drill... Lodged in the forcing cone & tied up the cylinder. I ended up as a "causality" & could only take cover behind a wheel while my partner fought off those dastardly turning targets. BUGs were not permitted in the drill.

I would rathered have had someone else be learning tool. After that I added a simple range rod to my duty gear...

 

[vt_shooter]

If it was a squib load caused the problem, would there be a visible ring or a bulge inside the barrel parts showing the pressure spike at that point?

 

[wbraswell]

I don't know about the squib theory. As we know, the .44 mag. is a round with significant recoil and blast. I would think any round that didn't have the pressure to push a bullet through the barrel would feel and sound significantly different.

 

[bigfatty]

That sad part is that analyzing the remaining ammo in all likelihood will be be pointless, in that if it was a defective round, the odds are greatly against there being a similar round in that box. The casings in the cylinder at the time it happened might be of some help.

IAE, I agree with those who state that Fiocchi will blame S&W and S&W will blame Fiocchi. That being said, if you were using factory ammo, S&W needs to honor its warranty, and go after Fiocchi if it believes their ammo caused the damage. Keep on S&W if they don't.

 

[Tom_R]

I am just glad you weren't hurt.

Get yourself $5 in Lotto Tickets before you do anything else.

You shot factory ammo through an unmodified new gun.

Someone owes you a new gun.

Hopefully between S&W and Fiochi, you will get funds for a replacement.

If you bought this from a LGS, bring it back there with the ammo and tell the owner of the LGS that you want their S&W rep to look at this, and to talk to you.

DO NOT send all the ammo back to S&W or Fiochi.

 

[glenwolde]

I don't see how it could be anything other than a defective gun. The cylinder and top strap are intact.

Any overpressure strong enough to blow out the left side like that should have blown the top strap off I would think. Or at least the right side too. The damage is so asymmetrical left to right at the forcing cone.

 

[Muss Muggins]

It would be interesting to find out indeed.
The ID round that came with mine was a Winchester that looked just like any other.

I've got $5 that says they just use a primed case, otherwise the "microstamp" crowd would be clamoring for the bullet fired during function testing to further ID the pistol. Of course, who says they're not being held in some database somewhere . . .

 

[Art Doc]

I would not send the gun to S&W. I would send photos and ask them what they intend to do. I have heard of people sending the guns back in these cases and they get nothing and the evidence you need is now in the hands of the entity you might need to sue.

Bad ammo is out. The cylinder would rupture not the frame/barrel.

Obstruction is highly unlikely. Even a bullet in the bore only results in a bulge, not a catastrophic failure like this.

Factory ammo in the hot sun is a zero possibility. Factory ammo is not loaded so hot that being in warm weather would make the load unsafe.

I am certain the gun failed. I have seen and heard of many split frames and barrels since S&W eliminated the pin. They have had a lot of trouble installing crush fit barrels. I've seen frames split right through the barrel threads and whole barrels blown off the frames.

If all you want is a replacement gun they should be happy to send you one. I would in their place. But take nothing for granted.

 

[joe44va]

And please don't forget that there are many, many folks very interested in this. Post what the outcome of this tragedy is for everyone's benefit.
Thanks
Joe

 

[flagman1776]

I've seen pictures (haven't we all) of blown guns. Every revolver incident I can recall, the top chamber (or more) was blown open & the top strap damaged, if not blown off at least partially.
I am in agreement that there was likely a flaw in the barrel at the forcing cone. A metalurgist should be able to determine this with enough magnification. To assign blame to torquing the barrel, is beyond my pay grade, however likely.

 

[garbler]

You are indeed lucky you or some fellow shooter off to the side wasn't fragged. However posts like this generate hundreds of experts none of which has the pieces in their hands or the probably the background to (1) check all the boxes and (2) determined the failure mode. So you may have a dilemma heading your way.

The factory wants the gun and all the pieces and won't say one way or the other how they will handle this.

You send them the gun you will almost never find out what caused this failure. If they have any liability exposure or share any they aren't going to want to help you out. They may indeed make you an offer something along the lines it could be your fault but we don't think the gun was defective. However we extend to you some goodwill and will sell you a new gun at cost. If they send you a new gun no charge then it was almost certainly defective but you will never know what went wrong and the gun never comes home.

Since there is no personal injury the factory service people will handle it most of the time unless they perceive you are potentially a legal threat.

The safest option if you think you are going to have problems is to have somebody photograph all parts and pieces including ammo boxes, cases etc with as much macro ( close up ) as possible. Inventory this and explain to the factory you are establishing a ' chain of custody ' and since this is your property you want it all returned to you in the same condition. Any failure analysis work where destructive testing is involved has to be done with your permission.

Right now you don't know if this is your fault or the factory or ammo maker so you just keep your fingers crossed somebody will step up with a settlement. In a pefect world you get a new gun but I wouldn't bet on it. This could take a while so the smart move is to get your ducks in a row. Be Prepared

Addendum: if you have time and deep pockets and really need to know how this failure occurred then perhaps you need to reach out to a good smallish test lab like I used to work with. It won't be cheap but this type of failure analysis is usually pretty straight forward.


Good luck

 

[dirtybarry]

I've got $5 that says they just use a primed case, otherwise the "microstamp" crowd would be clamoring for the bullet fired during function testing to further ID the pistol. Of course, who says they're not being held in some database somewhere . . .

Hmm, hadn't thought of that and it sounds totally plausible.

 

[garbler]

If you post good, clear, close-up, clear, magnified photos of the failure surfaces, some of us may be able to tell you whether it was a one time overload failure, or a fatigue crack starting at a weak point in the steel, that propagated until the one time overload failure.

I have seen many fracture surfaces during plane crash investigations and litigation.

Good points. I've been professionally involved on a forensic level for twenty-eight years in federal courts. Furthermore I'm married to a Materials Engineer who socializes with three friends who are metallurgists . They are dull beyond dull until something juicy like this pops up. Two of them shoot.

Fracture faces are everything in this type of analysis and high resolution macro images are absolutely necessary. If this is a typical pressure failure then all the signs of ductile rupture will be quite evident and any competent metallographer can establish this. It's then a matter of determining what caused the excess pressure. If it's an inclusion, heat treat anomaly or other metallurgic issue it will take further testing. Most gun failures are pressure ruptures in the barrel or cylinder however there are quite a few where defective machining or other factors can result in frame related failures. I don't know the answers but I've worked with the people who do

Regards

 

[Bullet Bob]

Just a request to the original poster: When S&W gets back to you on whatever they say the cause is, would you please update the thread title so I'll know to check back in? Thanks in advance.

 

[Carrier]

Any chance of posting better pictures?

 

[sw282]

Campin---Listen to the Pig.. This aint ammo failure...Bad ammo would have left a blown cylinder or bulged barrel..Likely a cracked frame where the barrel screws in...Theres a Youtube video of a guy receiving a brand new 686 Competitor.. He opens the S&W blue box and the frame is cracked where it screws into the frame..Right where your barrel ad frame parted ways. There are others if you search... KEEP THE GUN... Send pictures, but KEEP THE GUN

 

[turbo38gn]

Ok, no expert here, in fact, I'm just basing my observation on what I read here. I believe a few have said, since there is no sign of the top strap being damaged, then it can't be high pressure ammo related. WEll..... looking at the second picture, the front of the rear site is obviously damaged and bent upward. The screw that holds it down had to have a lot of force below it to pull it out of the top strap. Just my observation, but as I said, no clue as to what caused it, just an observation no one has mentioned.

 

[frankcr]

I would bet on defective metal but until someone qualified actually examines it, everything is but a guess.

Not sending it back to S&W guarantees that the cause of failure will never be known.

 

[steelslaver]

Not true. Plenty of qualified people that don't work for S&W who could analyze. Sending it from S&W may get a new gun, but it will never get you a complete statement as to cause of failure. Their Lawyer's would never allow them to send out a statement that they were sending out guns with serious mechanical defects. Might show up in another more serious case.

 

[Art Doc]

I didn't say NEVER send the gun to S&W. just wait until they settle before you turn it over to them. If you send them the gun before reaching an agreement you will never see the gun again and you may get no compensation. I have heard of it happening.

sw282- Read my signature line, dude.

 

[lrrifleman]

Fortunately, the OP wasn't injured.

I am not an engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't S&W have a problem in the late 1970s and early 1980s with the timing on their Model 29s? The fact that the cylinder wasn't destroyed and the back strap peeled back, I would suspect that the ammo wasn't an issue with respect to an overload. A squib load followed by a normal round might.

However, look at the geometry. If I remember correctly, Smith cylinders rotate counter clockwise. If the cylinder didn't lock up, or over traveled, an off center round catching on the side of the forcing cone could have blown the front of the frame and barrel off.

Just adding an observation, not intending on muddying the waters!

 

[BC38]

Fortunately, the OP wasn't injured.

I am not an engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If my memory serves me correctly, didn't S&W have a problem in the late 1970s and early 1980s with the timing on their Model 29s? The fact that the cylinder wasn't destroyed and the back strap peeled back, I would suspect that the ammo wasn't an issue with respect to an overload. A squib load followed by a normal round might.

However, look at the geometry. If I remember correctly, Smith cylinders rotate counter clockwise. If the cylinder didn't lock up, or over traveled, an off center round catching on the side of the forcing cone could have blown the front of the frame and barrel off.

Just adding an observation, not intending on muddying the waters!

FWIW, I am an engineer and this all makes sense with one minor exception. If the cylinder were that far off, wouldn't the firing pin miss the primer? Not saying it isn't possible, but the cylinder and bore can't be misaligned by more than about 1/16" and still have the firing pin hit the primer and light off the round - can it? I don't think most primers will ignite if hit right at the edge of the primer pocket, will they?

Campin Buddy - can you post a picture of the headstamp of the brass from the round that did the damage?

 

[xray 99]

I had a squib load with factory Winchester duty ammo. I was shooting rapid fire and did not notice it but luckily the next round would not chamber as the squib was still partially in the chamber. I have fired allot of ammo in my life and this was the only squib I ever had.

This happened to me with 9mm Silvertip.

 

[Arisin Wind]

Looks like what used to happen with early Ruger Redhawks. Some had "blown apart" just like this one. No barrel bulge, no cylinder breech. The issue turned out to be over torqued barrels.

 

[flintsghost]

The reason is they are carrying their ammo in mags and carriers not leaving it lying around on a bench for the sun to beat on. The sun shining on a box of ammo can raise the pressure considerably. That's what happened to the gun and ammo we were using. Because it was being used for an advertising gimic leading into the Shot Show. The temperature was high and the gun and ammo were being photographed.

I understand the Mil Spec powders are much more temperature stable, our local power co ADi that makes powders for Hodgden, make all sorts of wild claims about how insensitive their powders are...i fired a lot of 5.56 and 7.62 that has been baked in the sun all day never an issue.......assuming the powder was sensitive to being warmed up...will another 50ft/sec extra MV really blow up a gun...I dont know

I doubt that 50fps added would cause a blow. Military ammunition has a lot of built in safety factors, not the least of which is that it is not loaded right to the top of the pressure limit. The ammo I was testing, black tip glazers, were loaded to the top of pressure limit and then some. .44magnum on the other hand is usually loaded about as hot as one can stand and still be safe, especially in some brands. It would be a stronger candidate for an overpressure blow than most, especially if left out in the sun on the bench as this person's ammo obviously was from the pictures. The US Military went away from the Reloader series of powders in their M118LR because of it's proclivity to increase pressure in heated ambient temperatures and become unstable. So even their tests indicated a problem.

Interestingly, the Beretta M9 in use by US forces has had such a problem with slide fractures while shooting that Beretta had to add a safety device to capture the rear of the slide. More than just a handful of shooters have been killed or injured due to the fractured slides. Many have assumed it was a metallurgical problem but what if it was an ammo overpressure issue. Military nato spec 9mm 147 grain is loaded about as hot as it can be loaded to high +P specs. The Beretta slide issue was supposed to be solved with the retention device and yet last year a Marine in the dog handler school at Lackland AFB was severely injured when his Beretta slide fractured and the rear piece hit him in the chest, nearly killing him. The gun had the retention device but it didn't work. It gets pretty hot in San Antonio.

 

[cmj8591]

This was a bore obstruction just in front of the frame. The gun burst because the fired bullet smashed into the obstruction causing the moving bullet to deform. The momentum carries the force forward. The bullet deformation is sudden and violent and creates a huge amount of pressure against the inside the barrel. In this case, the weakest link was the frame on the yoke side and that gave way first causing the failure. Had the round been over pressure, the damage would have occurred in the chamber not the barrel. My guess is that the previous shot had been a squib load. That is the most likely explanation. Anything is possible but it would be strange for a weakness in the barrel to cause this type of failure. I've seen guns with cracked frames or cracked barrels in the throat area shoot for many hundreds of rounds without coming apart.

 

[dirtybarry]

FWIW, I am an engineer and this all makes sense with one minor exception. If the cylinder were that far off, wouldn't the firing pin miss the primer? Not saying it isn't possible, but the cylinder and bore can't be misaligned by more than about 1/16" and still have the firing pin hit the primer and light off the round - can it? I don't think most primers will ignite if hit right at the edge of the primer pocket, will they?

Campin Buddy - can you post a picture of the headstamp of the brass from the round that did the damage?

Someone suggested this very thing about my failure too. But all three of the final rounds looked identical and no different than any of the other thousands that were fired.
Another suggestion from Hodgdon Powder was that possibly because of the fast burn rate of H-110 powder that the base of the plated bullet that I use was mushrooming and then stressing the forcing cone as it was swaged back into place. However, measuring the cylinder chambers, the front end measures less than .431" inside diameter, so how much could the bullet expand in the less than 1/4" distance from the end of the cylinder to the lands of the rifling? If it expanded that much that easy, I would think that it would mush back into place just as easy. And why wouldn't the cylinder break first? Far-fetched but at least a slim possibility.
In the OP's case though, I'm pretty sure that the Fiocchi bullets are going to be stronger and I doubt that they're going to be loaded any hotter than my near max reloads. And his failed even faster than mine did.
We compared serial #'s but they are pretty far apart. Even though mine was bought about 8 months before his, mine was much older production. His was built in Sept 2015 and mine appears to have been made in 2012.

 

[garbler]

It really is mind boggling how many jump in with answers based on three poor photos and little or no background info. Vigilante failure analysis.

I really can't say how this will turn out but can offer some insights from my experience and past history and probabilities. I would therefore consider the following.

If you send them the gun, parts and associated pieces you will most likely never get them back, at least not all of it or in the same condition . They will most likely do an in-house inspection then depending on what they find have one of their testing labs conduct a failure analysis. I'm sure they would not in-house test as this would be legally imprudent

If the gun is sent to them without specific terms to protect the evidence it is very likely you will receive the gun back less a few critical pieces or parts. If they request permission for various lab tests, and they should ask since it is your property, insure that they are non-destructive.

Ask them to provide you with the name of the testing lab if they intend to use one. If you need to, suggest your own lab. There are plenty of test labs around but the smaller ones are more approachable and easier to work with. However most of your smaller labs will not have a SEM ( scanning electron microscope ) however this equipment is often not necessary to nail down gun failures of this type.

I can't imagine S&W settling this accident without physically having the gun in hand. Doing so would be legally and otherwise irresponsible. This therefore puts both sides in a bit of a stand off. You claim your gun or their product failed but they have no proof without physical evidence of the blown up gun. You are wisely reluctant to hand over your gun realizing that in doing so you lose all control and are at the full mercy of the factory

If a stand-off does occur then the only fail safe way to handle this is to involve a credible third party with appropriate technical depth. A lab, a firearms expert, attorney etc etc. And a complete set of high resolution macro images of all parts and pieces. This neutral third party can keep the playing field level and if this whole incident gets ugly and you feel it is necessary to pursue legal satisfaction this makes you look good.

No, S&W will not issue a report of findings or make any statements revealing the gun's failure unless forced to or it can be used to their advantage. This failure was much too dangerous and potentially catastrophic to go public with. No manufacturer is perfect and no matter how a bunch of guys on a forum feel this is about business first. Unless they want to play at this like Remington has with their defective triggers they will settle with you if you can show them they are at fault and hope this unfortunate incident will fade away with time.

 

[dirtybarry]

Given the potential liability issues, that's what I thought. However, they basically told me to go pound sand. I fear the OP will receive the same (lack of) consideration.