Model 29 blow up

[cmj8591]

If a stand-off does occur then the only fail safe way to handle this is to involve a credible third party with appropriate technical depth. A lab, a firearms expert, attorney etc etc. And a complete set of high resolution macro images of all parts and pieces. This neutral third party can keep the playing field level and if this whole incident gets ugly and you feel it is necessary to pursue legal satisfaction this makes you look good.

By the time you are done with this, you will have spent enough money to buy a case of model 29's. If the lab tells you that the gun was sound and the failure was caused by the ammo, or if they can not determine the reason for the failure, you just invested a lot of funds for nothing. I still think that it will be hard to fault the gun after using it for 600+ rounds without failure.

Contact Smith and send it to them. No, you won't get it back. They are not going to return a defective gun to anyone. Besides, it's broken beyond repair. You are never going to shoot it again anyways. They will test it. Their metallurgy lab is one of the best in the industry. If it was the gun, they will replace it for you. If it was the ammo, they will offer you a gun at a discount. Unless you lost an eye or a finger and a large law suit was anticipated, there's no point looking for lawyers or independent experts. This is not advise based on conjecture, it is advise based on experience. Good luck with the ammo company. You will be lucky if they send you a coupon for a free box of ammo.

 

[Granite Stater]

Interestingly, the Beretta M9 in use by US forces has had such a problem with slide fractures while shooting that Beretta had to add a safety device to capture the rear of the slide. More than just a handful of shooters have been killed or injured due to the fractured slides. Many have assumed it was a metallurgical problem but what if it was an ammo overpressure issue. Military nato spec 9mm 147 grain is loaded about as hot as it can be loaded to high +P specs. The Beretta slide issue was supposed to be solved with the retention device and yet last year a Marine in the dog handler school at Lackland AFB was severely injured when his Beretta slide fractured and the rear piece hit him in the chest, nearly killing him. The gun had the retention device but it didn't work. It gets pretty hot in San Antonio.[/QUOTE]

When the handful of M9 slides failed it was a torture test by NSW specifically designed to break the gun. They wanted to see what it would take to do the damage. They have done the same with other firearms. This was done on purpose, they just didn't expect the slide to come off. Beretta did add a part to prevent this in the future.

 

[Kho]

By the time you are done with this, you will have spent enough money to buy a case of model 29's. If the lab tells you that the gun was sound and the failure was caused by the ammo, or if they can not determine the reason for the failure, you just invested a lot of funds for nothing. I still think that it will be hard to fault the gun after using it for 600+ rounds without failure.

Contact Smith and send it to them. No, you won't get it back. They are not going to return a defective gun to anyone. Besides, it's broken beyond repair. You are never going to shoot it again anyways. They will test it. Their metallurgy lab is one of the best in the industry. If it was the gun, they will replace it for you. If it was the ammo, they will offer you a gun at a discount. Unless you lost an eye or a finger and a large law suit was anticipated, there's no point looking for lawyers or independent experts. This is not advise based on conjecture, it is advise based on experience. Good luck with the ammo company. You will be lucky if they send you a coupon for a free box of ammo.

This is the most sound advice I've read so far. No disrespect intended, but some of the responses were a little too...enthusiastic...given that no one was hurt.

Like others, I'm curious to read the outcome. Good luck.

 

[garbler]

By the time you are done with this, you will have spent enough money to buy a case of model 29's. If the lab tells you that the gun was sound and the failure was caused by the ammo, or if they can not determine the reason for the failure, you just invested a lot of funds for nothing. I still think that it will be hard to fault the gun after using it for 600+ rounds without failure.
Mm
Contact Smith and send it to them. No, you won't get it back. They are not going to return a defective gun to anyone. Besides, it's broken beyond repair. You are never going to shoot it again anyways. They will test it. Their metallurgy lab is one of the best in the industry. If it was the gun, they will replace it for you. If it was the ammo, they will offer you a gun at a discount. Unless you lost an eye or a finger and a large law suit was anticipated, there's no point looking for lawyers or independent experts. This is not advise based on conjecture, it is advise based on experience. Good luck with the ammo company. You will be lucky if they send you a coupon for a free box of ammo.

If the OP feels like rolling the dice and send the the whole package fine. But there is undeniably some risk in getting real satisfaction and literally no chance of finding out what happened. What most of us have not addressed is that maybe S&W has no culpability in this at all. I disagree that it will cost a ton to take a serious stance with the factory to send them a message that you want to be treated seriously. A third party dos not have to be an Ivy League attorney or a large test lab only a person with some depth with firearms and honesty.

Re: S&W's metallurgist I will only say my wife and I know a pretty decent metallurgist from Andover, MA who applied for a position with them in around 1992-94 when Steve Melvin and the British owned the company. Things may have improved but to call them tops in the industry is beyond comprehension.

Regards

 

[Dr Denby]

Well, Campin Buddy

What's happened?

Doc

 

[Tom_R]

I doubt that 50fps added would cause a blow. Military ammunition has a lot of built in safety factors, not the least of which is that it is not loaded right to the top of the pressure limit. The ammo I was testing, black tip glazers, were loaded to the top of pressure limit and then some. .44magnum on the other hand is usually loaded about as hot as one can stand and still be safe, especially in some brands. It would be a stronger candidate for an overpressure blow than most, especially if left out in the sun on the bench as this person's ammo obviously was from the pictures. The US Military went away from the Reloader series of powders in their M118LR because of it's proclivity to increase pressure in heated ambient temperatures and become unstable. So even their tests indicated a problem.

Interestingly, the Beretta M9 in use by US forces has had such a problem with slide fractures while shooting that Beretta had to add a safety device to capture the rear of the slide. More than just a handful of shooters have been killed or injured due to the fractured slides. Many have assumed it was a metallurgical problem but what if it was an ammo overpressure issue. Military nato spec 9mm 147 grain is loaded about as hot as it can be loaded to high +P specs. The Beretta slide issue was supposed to be solved with the retention device and yet last year a Marine in the dog handler school at Lackland AFB was severely injured when his Beretta slide fractured and the rear piece hit him in the chest, nearly killing him. The gun had the retention device but it didn't work. It gets pretty hot in San Antonio.

That 9mm Ammo that was causing the issue, if I recall correctly, was specifically for MP-5 Submachine Guns, and Marines and Special Forces units were putting them in Berettas and Sigs and breaking guns, if my memory serves me correctly. This was about 20 years ago that I remember hearing about this. Beretta got a bad rap, but people were quick to point out that ammo was being put through the gun that was not meant for it, and that was why.

 

[Bob1943]

That 9mm Ammo that was causing the issue, if I recall correctly, was specifically for MP-5 Submachine Guns, and Marines and Special Forces units were putting them in Berettas and Sigs and breaking guns, if my memory serves me correctly. This was about 20 years ago that I remember hearing about this. Beretta got a bad rap, but people were quick to point out that ammo was being put through the gun that was not meant for it, and that was why.

You are exactly right. I have a 1989 Beretta 92F and wrote a letter to Beretta expressing my concern about the reported slide failure issue. They responded:
"That problem is only able to occur through the use ammunition considerably more powerful than the pistol is rated for (such as +P+, +P++, or SubMachine Gun only ammunition) combined with no maintenance at factory recommended intervals. Your pistol will provide years of safe service provided you maintain to factory standards and avoid non-recommended ammunition."

 

[Campin Buddy]

Sorry for delay gentlemen, family, work, Christmas, etc.

I've got a shipping label to send back to SW. I have been reading each of your suggestions and have carefully considered all the advice given. I don't have the funds for legal advice, I saved long enough just to buy the darn thing, nor the drive to involve an expert third party. I'm just hoping for a favorable resolution that gets me back to shooting soon-ish.

Here are some pics, apologize again for the low quality. I'm not sending back it till tomorrow eve so if there is something you'd really like to see post up and I'll try to get it before then. I haven't looked too much at the spent casings, I'll do that over the break.



Hope these help, and again I can't thank everyone enough for the knowledge and suggestions. Merry Christmas.

 

[44wheelman]

My money's on an over torqued bbl. Good luck with S&W, but
looking at that, I don't think (hope) they will give you much grief.
And a Merry Christmas to you.

 

[Carrier]

Is that rust in those pictures?

 

[bagga]

those grips on that gun are beautiful. i would keep them and send the gun back without them.

 

[Fboyj]

Is that rust in those pictures?

That is copper buildup which is the enemy of accuracy at times.

 

[twodog max]

This thread has went all over the world but has went nowhere. Take good pictures of everything, document lot numbers on the ammo, and send it back to S&W. I would think S&W would replace the gun without to much trouble but you won't know until it goes back. Since you suffered no injury and only a possible financial loss except for a huge scare there in no loss on your end.

Also just because some blow ups are shooting reloads does not necessarily mean S&W will not make good. I have a friend that blew up a Model 60 and admitted using reloads and S&W reimbursed him. It took quite a bit of back and forth but they did come through in the end. I suppose it depends on who you talk to and how you talk to them.

One thing for sure if you frag an attorney into this at the start it will drag on forever. Immediately S&W will send in their attorney and it will drag on for eternity. My son is an attorney and I have heard many stories from him how this scenario plays out.

 

[shocker]

frag an attorney

Best advice yet, sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[garbler]

Well good luck and I hope you get treated well. I totally agree whenever you push the legal button you are going to slow things way down so most of the time it can be counter productive. But when push comes to shove it's the only way some times. Just look at Remington and their Walker triggers to see how some companies will just blow off their customers unless drug into court. Talk about a slow expensive class action suit but it was the only way to get them to respond. Take good pictures and notes no kidding

 

[retired 302]

Had the same thing happen to me 1974 got the 29 for a Christmas present went to the range next day loaded six rounds of Federal 230 44 mag fired two rounds I said to myself what a kick looked down at the gun the top strap and top half of the cylinder was gone,luckly I was not hurt. Living in CT S&W was close. Those days I was able to go in the main building and meet with Roy Jinks who look at the gun stated he had never seen damage like this. He said he will call federal give them the lot number from the box and have the gun examined at the factory I was able to recover part of the top strap and top of cylinder. Approximately 3 months later I received the 29 back they replaced the frame and cylinder took the barrel from the old one.
They sent there apologies for the problem. Federal said they inspected the gun and blamed S&W.

 

[joe44va]

Good move Camping Buddy. S&W is a very reputable company and because there were no damages beyond the weapon (which means little chance of successful litigation) I suspect they will do what they can to defend their reputation and to maintain you and us as customers.

 

[gbran]

You are lucky to have eyes to see and fingers to post this thread. I had to have eye surgery after a muzzle brake from a Mosin blew up in my face. No perm damage, all is good now.

 

[S.B.]

Glad everyone is OK but, I'd bet barrel obstruction.
Steve

 

[Stilltrying]

This seems like a good class project for a local college metallurgy department. They have the technology for the real answer.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Looking at latest photo 2-I would say Lee has the best scenario from what has been presented. JMTCW.

 

[Leah]

Save the good parts

I am glad you are o.k.. I had 629 blow up in my hand from using reloads from a "friend". I sent it to smith and they said it was the ammunition's fault. They did offer to sell me a new one at cost. I took them on the offer. If did find it odd that they did not return my old revolver. I am sure the trigger, barrel, and several other parts were fine. I don't know how to attach a link but if you look at my first few ever posts can see the pictures. And.........you can all skip the lecture on shooting reloads from someone else. I learned that the hard way like most things.

 

[D.H. Callahan]

Yes, I'd also say a bore obstruction.

Or, maybe your bore is extra-tight and Fiocchi ammo is extra-fat. Do you know the bore diameter? Is it normal?



-------------------

There wouldn't be enough difference to do that. Such a round would never fit in the chamber. Even if it did, it would have gotten caught in the cylinder and taken that out.

 

[richcory]

Hope everything turns out for the best

 

[shinbone]

The last set of photos seem to show a lot of rust on the fracture surface of the barrel. Also, there seems to be a shiny portion and a dull portion to that fracture surface. Almost looks like there was a pre-existing crack in the barrel, which finally weakened enough to catastrophically let go the rest of the way.

Also, with no injuries and an $800 gun at stake, only someone with lots of money to waste would hire an attorney. Plus, S&W ain't doing nothing without the gun in their hands. The OP's only realistic recourse is to send in the gun and hope for the best.

 

[pittpa]

I use a lot of Speer Lawman ammo in my semi autos. Their 115 grain 9mm load seems hotter than others but not +P. What was the issue with the ammo you wanted it tested for?

Missed your question over the holidays. 22 LR had extra heavy coat of waxy lube. Prevented going into battery.

 

[S.B.]

Going back over your other posts, you posted a "New to handguns",(http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/449225-choosing-store-bought-revolver.html and now this one)in October in 2015 and you further stated it was a .44 S&W? Pretty large purchase for someone new to handguns? I would suggest you go to something in the .22LR range before going any further? Pardon me but, just how much experience do you have with these big boomers?
My $.02, Steve

 

[SLT223]

Going back over your other posts, you posted a "New to handguns",(http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/449225-choosing-store-bought-revolver.html and now this one)in October in 2015 and you further stated it was a .44 S&W? Pretty large purchase for someone new to handguns? I would suggest you go to something in the .22LR range before going any further? Pardon me but, just how much experience do you have with these big boomers?
My $.02, Steve

Steve, how does inexperience with a large bore handgun, either presumed or otherwise, have anything to do with the gun failing under use with the correct caliber factory ammo?

If he had more experience, what would he have done differently to prevent what happened?

 

[model70hunter]

There is only one thing to do, photograph and get an RMA from S&W. Send them the gun. Keep records.

I sent a Beretta 303 back and had a new one in a week. I also sent a factory rusted NIB Ruger #1 back and they replaced it.

I have a 629 last model and shoot it once in a while. It is more of a back up rather than a shoot targets with.

When Stainless revolvers 1st came out there were probably more exploded guns in a couple of years that in the previous 50 with blue steel revolvers.

I wanted one but held back sticking to blue steel except for Ruger Stainless 22's.

Blue steel and Stainless steel grain structures differently when heated and made inot the steel bars for the final machining. Blue steel grains run parallel, for a lack of a better term, while stainless steel grains are like packed sand. I have seen both types that have exploded in microscopic pictures.

Blue steel seems to open as in a tear, like a bulged bbl and a rip along the top of the bulge.

Stainless seems to grenade and go to many pieces.
Stainless grain structures under the microscope looks like sand grains surrounded by fluid metal after the grenading.

To be honest after all the artices I read and pictures I saw in the 80's I stuck with blue steel.

I looked for blue steel 4" revolvers in 29 and 586 for a long time and ended up buying a 686 and a 629. So far no issues, but every time I shoot them the grainy pictures of grenaded stainless crosses my mind.

So hope you have an excellent end result. If it was me I would have sent it off long ago.

 

[sw282]

Factory gun+factory ammo+proper cleaning=BLOWUP=Equipment Failure