Model 41 and CCI stnd velocity ammo
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eljaydubya
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Peter: If I remember my old Physics books correctly, a larger mass, (weight), is more difficult to stop abruptly then a lighter mass. Hammering on the frame should be more severe with the heavier mass once the slide is launched. Also, springing probably is quite different between the two handguns.
S&W 41 Ammo issues
This is based upon my experience and understanding, from shooting S&W 41s for more than 30 years. Have a number of them, of all vintages, but don't consider myself an expert. So, take these comments for what they are worth to you.
I hold the Model 41 in high regard, but agree that they can have issues. I have had good luck these past years with Federal Auto Match, and all CCI 40 grain ammunition. CCI Pistol Match being the most accurate I have ever seen in two of my particular guns (One a 7x,xxx range 5-1/2 inch heavy barrel with thousands and thousands of rounds through it, the other an "optics only" 5 inch 41, offered briefly in the mid-1990s. That one isn't often fired, and has a Leupold "Gilmore" red dot)
1) The Behlert article on punch-peening the Model 41 extractor to change its shape slightly is quite old. I have it somewhere. Tried it once, and didn't find that it made a difference. One observation I would make today -- I believe that currently manufactured extractors are MIM parts, not forged. Trying to dimple them with a punch and move metal that way may cause a fracture, not a reshaping. Haven't tried it.
2) I agree with those that believe that a Model 41 can be used with "high velocity" 40 grain .22 Long Rifle cartridges without causing damage. I agree that using a lighter recoil spring could make using thousands of rounds of high velocity ammunition unadvisable in terms of long term wear, but I have never used a lighter recoil spring. I understand that others are adamant about the issue, and only use standard velocity ammmuntion. If it works well for them, great. If there is data regarding the relative pressure curves/peak pressures/slide velocity - whatever - in a 41 when using high velocity versus standard velocity, I would certainly be interested. There may be a measurable difference, but my next questions would be whether any differences are meaningful in terms of durability of the gun. Note that I am not speaking of HV .22 Shorts in a 41-1, or, for that matter, HV ammo in a Model 46 with the thin slide rails/90 degree angle. My preferred ammo these days is the CCI Standard Velocity, having said all of this.
3) Finally, based upon my experience, I have founf that making sure that there is a clean chamber can resolve some, if not all, of the failure to eject "sideways" jams in a 41. I know from experience in the past with the hard (i.e., "non-sticky") lube used on some brands of ammunition that brushing the chamber well, and even rubbing a thin film of Break-Free on the cartridges before loading seemed to help a lot during matches. I have always thought that, like with plastic shotshells and wads, there can be a thin buildup of the lube around the case mouth, and extending back slightly into the chamber that creates friction and slows the extraction and ejection cycle enough to cause jams. This my not be visible as fouling -- just like the choke tubes in my shotguns can look smooth and clean, but still have a film of plastic in their bore. Back in the day, I recall that Federal ammo, which had a very hard plastic like bullet coating, seemed to cause this in the 41 I shot in Bullseye matches, whereas the Remington Std. velocity ammo with a soft/greasy wax lube didn't seem to be a problem.
I also recall that my 41 would not extract/eject Eley Club ammunition reliably, after I bought a case at a very good price. I tried the same Eley Club in a Model 18 revolver that never had issues, and the Eley stuck in the chamber of that revolver. I assumed it was a case of the brass being soft. Fortunately, I had a Ruger 77/22 that loved the stuff, and still have some left.
I think that any .22 rimfire autoloader that has a chamber and barrel intended for maximum accuracy may be ammunition and fouling intolerant. I do feel bad for people that are willing to spend the kind of money it usually takes to purchase a Model 41 having a bad experience out of the gate. I hope that the comments on this BB of those of us who are die hard Model 41 fans can help some.
This is based upon my experience and understanding, from shooting S&W 41s for more than 30 years. Have a number of them, of all vintages, but don't consider myself an expert. So, take these comments for what they are worth to you.
I hold the Model 41 in high regard, but agree that they can have issues. I have had good luck these past years with Federal Auto Match, and all CCI 40 grain ammunition. CCI Pistol Match being the most accurate I have ever seen in two of my particular guns (One a 7x,xxx range 5-1/2 inch heavy barrel with thousands and thousands of rounds through it, the other an "optics only" 5 inch 41, offered briefly in the mid-1990s. That one isn't often fired, and has a Leupold "Gilmore" red dot)
1) The Behlert article on punch-peening the Model 41 extractor to change its shape slightly is quite old. I have it somewhere. Tried it once, and didn't find that it made a difference. One observation I would make today -- I believe that currently manufactured extractors are MIM parts, not forged. Trying to dimple them with a punch and move metal that way may cause a fracture, not a reshaping. Haven't tried it.
2) I agree with those that believe that a Model 41 can be used with "high velocity" 40 grain .22 Long Rifle cartridges without causing damage. I agree that using a lighter recoil spring could make using thousands of rounds of high velocity ammunition unadvisable in terms of long term wear, but I have never used a lighter recoil spring. I understand that others are adamant about the issue, and only use standard velocity ammmuntion. If it works well for them, great. If there is data regarding the relative pressure curves/peak pressures/slide velocity - whatever - in a 41 when using high velocity versus standard velocity, I would certainly be interested. There may be a measurable difference, but my next questions would be whether any differences are meaningful in terms of durability of the gun. Note that I am not speaking of HV .22 Shorts in a 41-1, or, for that matter, HV ammo in a Model 46 with the thin slide rails/90 degree angle. My preferred ammo these days is the CCI Standard Velocity, having said all of this.
3) Finally, based upon my experience, I have founf that making sure that there is a clean chamber can resolve some, if not all, of the failure to eject "sideways" jams in a 41. I know from experience in the past with the hard (i.e., "non-sticky") lube used on some brands of ammunition that brushing the chamber well, and even rubbing a thin film of Break-Free on the cartridges before loading seemed to help a lot during matches. I have always thought that, like with plastic shotshells and wads, there can be a thin buildup of the lube around the case mouth, and extending back slightly into the chamber that creates friction and slows the extraction and ejection cycle enough to cause jams. This my not be visible as fouling -- just like the choke tubes in my shotguns can look smooth and clean, but still have a film of plastic in their bore. Back in the day, I recall that Federal ammo, which had a very hard plastic like bullet coating, seemed to cause this in the 41 I shot in Bullseye matches, whereas the Remington Std. velocity ammo with a soft/greasy wax lube didn't seem to be a problem.
I also recall that my 41 would not extract/eject Eley Club ammunition reliably, after I bought a case at a very good price. I tried the same Eley Club in a Model 18 revolver that never had issues, and the Eley stuck in the chamber of that revolver. I assumed it was a case of the brass being soft. Fortunately, I had a Ruger 77/22 that loved the stuff, and still have some left.
I think that any .22 rimfire autoloader that has a chamber and barrel intended for maximum accuracy may be ammunition and fouling intolerant. I do feel bad for people that are willing to spend the kind of money it usually takes to purchase a Model 41 having a bad experience out of the gate. I hope that the comments on this BB of those of us who are die hard Model 41 fans can help some.
I get the odd stovepipe with my M41 and my M46 useing the CCI 40 gr ammo but after a good cleaning they both seem to work much better for sure. Its only 2 of my 5 mags that do this problem so I will pay attention to more cleaning of these 2 guns a I do use them the most it seems.
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jerrypoller
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So, the new spring arrived today and I installed it but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. Funny though, the new spring looks like the same coils, but is just over 1/4" longer than the one installed in the pistol when I bought it a few years back. I would have thought it would be the same length. Since it's longer, can I assume it will be even harder for SV ammo to cycle the slide properly? I should be able to try it this weekend and can report back next week.
Jeff's comments were spot on. I noticed a friend give his chamber a spritz of cleaner then a twirl at the base of the chamber with a .22 brass brush. He then swabbed with a clean patch. he does not use the brass brush through the entire barrel, just the depth of the round; he said more rimfirecentral barrels have been damaged by aggressive cleaning than by anything else!
I think the dry lube accumulates and it's hard to see the crud there.
I'm looking forward to getting the Clark conversion barrel. I've heard great things about them! And I'm sure they will banish the extractor problems.
Good luck. Let us know how you progress.
I think the dry lube accumulates and it's hard to see the crud there.
I'm looking forward to getting the Clark conversion barrel. I've heard great things about them! And I'm sure they will banish the extractor problems.
Good luck. Let us know how you progress.
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jerrypoller
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I took my 41 out today and ran CCI SV and Federal Auto Match through it. Still lots of FTF and FTE (stovepipes) with the CCI, and only one or two (out of a couple hundred rounds each) with the Federal. I also disassembled all my magazines and thoroughly cleaned them (thinking the FTF could be aggravated by a magazine problem).
I'm at the point where I'm going to try a lower weight spring to see if it will allow the slide to fully cycle with the lower velocity ammo - I don't have this problem with the higher velocity "standard" rounds, and I don't want to switch to HV ammo if I don't have to. Wolf sells springs down to 6 lbs., so I might try a 6 and a 7 lb. to see what happens. More to come.
fred5876r
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I have a recent Clark STC barrel on my 41, with mixed results. Initially the gun would only very rarely extract an unfired round. I sent my gun and the Clark barrel to Clark. They supposedly adjusted the extractor and polished the chamber, but from the results I wonder if they even looked at it. No change. The chamber was VERY tight, and I had a local gunsmith ream it. Extraction of unfired rounds is much better, but still fails maybe 20-30% of the time. I make sure to clean the chamber before or after every match.
Having said all that, I absolutely love the Clark barrel and would recommend it to anyone. It is incredibly accurate, and having open space above the chamber makes it extremely easy to clean, to check if the gun is loaded, and to work the slide (especially with the hammer down). I shoot CCI Standard Velocity exclusively and it gives 100% function (except for the extraction issue).
Here is a picture of my 41 with a Leupold DeltaPoint attached (I have since replaced that with a C-More RTS):
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jerrypoller
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My Wolf spring set came yesterday and I took it out today to see if a lighter spring solved the FTE problem. I started with a 7 lb. spring and, while it cycled better than with the standard [brand new replacement from S&W], I still got stovepipes. So, I dropped down to the 6.5 lb. spring and about 150 rounds later only had a couple of FTEject/stovepipes. I also had some FTF problems (the round starts out of the mag, but is caught just below the chamber - I jump it up with a knife point into the chamber and then the slide closes and the round fires), and am trying to isolate it to one or more of my magazines. I also had a few failures to extract since I took the firing pin and extractor out to clean them. I don't want to "gunsmith" the extractor, but wonder if there is anything else I can do to make extraction more reliable. Can it have anything to do with the recoil spring? In any event, I am now shooting CCI SV with enough consistency to keep whats left of my inventory.
I'm sorry but it seems that you should shoot the ammo that works without problems....Federal Auto Match. Your 41 isn't the only .22 pistol that shows a preference for a certain ammo.
If the gun hasn't been shot a lot it may need those higher velocity rounds to break it in. I'd put the spring Smith sent you back in and shoot 2 or 3 bricks of the Auto Match through it.
Keep the chamber clean and use the recommended lubrication on the slide and rails. Only after breaking it in would I try different ammo brands or weights in it.
This is a classic case of Ammo Preference, a textbook case if you prefer. The Federal ammo it prefers is pretty accurate, clean shooting and won't harm your gun in the least.
You could mess around fighting this gun and grow increasingly agitated every time you shoot it or accept the fact that it prefers the higher velocity ammo. It sounds like you're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
If the gun hasn't been shot a lot it may need those higher velocity rounds to break it in. I'd put the spring Smith sent you back in and shoot 2 or 3 bricks of the Auto Match through it.
Keep the chamber clean and use the recommended lubrication on the slide and rails. Only after breaking it in would I try different ammo brands or weights in it.
This is a classic case of Ammo Preference, a textbook case if you prefer. The Federal ammo it prefers is pretty accurate, clean shooting and won't harm your gun in the least.
You could mess around fighting this gun and grow increasingly agitated every time you shoot it or accept the fact that it prefers the higher velocity ammo. It sounds like you're trying to fix something that isn't broken.
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jerrypoller
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My .22 target rifles (Remington 37, Winchester 52, Anschutz 64) all have ammo preferences for accuracy. I thought .22 target pistols would too - but for accuracy, not function. I'm finding it difficult to believe that they shouldn't function with all commercial ammo, notwithstanding one of them will be the most consistently accurate. Comments?
Sven
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I do love my Clark barrel, but it did not cure any extraction/ejection problems I had. I bought it to mount a red dot without drilling and tapping by factory 7" barrel and it does have the rear hood. CCI SV is my gun's favorite, but prefers to run with a 6 1/2# spring. I have to watch for the chamber getting dirty which is the usual cause of an alibi. I had poor luck with Federal target (and others) 15+ years ago, switched to SV and never looked back. I suppose I could take a look at what Federal produces, now. Oh, I also run mine a bit wet with Shooter's Choice oil.
I know part of my problem with my 1958 m41 has been with the Compensator now. They can cause many of your fliers to go high left which mine has been doing somewhat as well as some stovepipes. A good cleaning really does help the stovepipe problem for sure. It does in both of mine.
jstanfield103
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I also had the FTE ( stove piping problem ) the only way to fix the problem was to buy a 22LR match reamer from Brownells and ream the chamber. S&W makes the tolerances of the chamber to tight. I have not had any more FTE problems since. Some other people just use a drill and a over sized brass brush to ream the chamber out it has also worked for them. FTE are comen with this gun, that's the only problem that the gun deos have. Once the chamber is reamed you wont have anymore problems with it. The extractor fix never did work for me. I would do the reaming of the chamber and put the new spring (Factory spec. spring ) back in and have a great time with a great gun. The CCI SV are so much better at grouping than the higher velocity stuff.
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jerrypoller
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Elsewhere on this forum I found a post about polishing the chamber with toothpaste - so I tried it. I put a patch through a slotted plastic jag and attached it to my drill. A little toothpaste on the patch and I let the drill run the patch in the chamber for a minute or two. Afterwards, CCI SV ammo that wouldn't drop into the chamber before the polishing were all dropping in easily. I cleaned the barrel and will try a hundred or so rounds through it tomorrow to see if the FTE/stovepipe problem is solved.
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jerrypoller
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I had my 41 out today and ran a second string of 60 shots through 6 mags without a single failure. On 60 previous shots, it had 3-4 FTE stovepipes and one FTF with the CCI SV ammo. I think I've got the problem licked. I'll make sure to keep the chamber clean and give the last spring (the 6 lb.) a try before I decide on which spring weight is most reliable.
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jerrypoller
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Problem solved. Yesterday, I swapped out the 6.5 lb. spring which had given me just a few FTE for the 6.0 lb. spring and not a single failure of any kind in a 100 round string. BTW, I put the factory 7.5 lb. spring in my 7.5" m41 which I will be giving to my son as soon as his NYC paperwork is available, and it shot CCI SV without a hitch. Now I know why they make springs from 6 lb. to 7.5 lb. - something reliable for every pistol out there.
