Moving to Maine, Found a Nice M&P

[Screwball]

So, I'm in the process of starting a new job up in Houlton. Spent a few days looking around, and found a gun shop to browse as I waited for a realtor to call me back. Was a few surplus rifles, but nothing really caught my eye. Also saw a few pre-1964 Winchester lever guns (.30-30), but again... nothing that told me I had to get it.

Walked down the display case, and noticed a few older .22s. I have my FFL-03, so I could buy something 50 years or older... but at the bottom shelf, I saw something that caught my eye.

M&P, serial number in the 291xxx range, in .38 Special. Terrible with gauging barrel lengths, so will have to measure it sometime. The girl behind the counter said 1920 or 1921... but figuring even earlier. Box looks odd, but has typed gun info on a sticker. Also has a test target dates 1916... which seems closer to where that date would align. It's hard being 700 miles from home, without any way to research except an iPhone.

Looks good for a 103 year old gun... if that date is accurate. I have to stop back in NJ before going out to Georgia for training. Will likely print out a letter request and mail it in at that time.

 

[JP@AK]

serial number in the 291xxx range

The girl behind the counter said 1920 or 1921... but figuring even earlier.

Before 1919. #316648 was assembled in September, 1919.

I believe that is a 6" barrel. The 6 1/2" was discontinued before that time.

 

[Absalom]

At least on your picture I don't see the sideplate logo, which would put it after mid-1917.

 

[tenntex32]

It's hard being 700 miles from home, without any way to research except an iPhone.

Thus the reason I always keep a cheap laptop around for work travel, both domestically and internationally.

You can use your phone for a wifi hotspot if you have a good data plan. I have an old contract with unlimited data. Usually the hotel, restaurants, etc., have decent wifi for computer use though.

I hate trying to do any serious internet stuff on my phone, but it is nice to have just to pass the time if you are somewhere where you can't keep your laptop handy.

I think the laptop I'm using now is about 3 years old now and cost $300 and some change. It was a gift from my wife and kids as my previous "travel" laptop was getting really really old. I have had several inexpensive laptops survive numerous international and domestic work related trips, some for months on end. If someone feels the need to steal it or confiscate it no big loss. I know guys that drag around $3000 laptops on work related trips. Screw that.

Nice revolver. The grips wopuld have had me looking at it right away. I know someone who needs those exact grips and they ain't cheap to find. Did someone modify the front sight slightly, as I would think it should be a half-moon front sight?

I worked in Portland and lived in Windham for about 6 or 7 months. This was about 15 years ago though. I enjoyed Maine...…..especially as a single man.

I see Houlton is way the heck up there. You might want to think about dual citizenship with Canidia!

Dale

 

[schutzen-jager]

FYI

great find - but be aware that if your 03 c+r has your NJ address bringing it back to NJ is a first class felony under state law unless you have first obtained a NJ pistol permit to purchase it - transaction totally legal under federal law - out of state transactions of long arms would be legal if you possess a valid FID
but not on handguns - NJ does not recognize the 03 - don't ask how I learned this or how much it cost me - good luck on your move to a more friendly state

 

[Capt. F.]

So, I'm in the process of starting a new job up in Houlton. Spent a few days looking around, and found a gun shop to browse as I waited for a realtor to call me back. Was a few surplus rifles, but nothing really caught my eye. Also saw a few pre-1964 Winchester lever guns (.30-30), but again... nothing that told me I had to get it.

Walked down the display case, and noticed a few older .22s. I have my FFL-03, so I could buy something 50 years or older... but at the bottom shelf, I saw something that caught my eye.

M&P, serial number in the 291xxx range, in .38 Special. Terrible with gauging barrel lengths, so will have to measure it sometime. The girl behind the counter said 1920 or 1921... but figuring even earlier. Box looks odd, but has typed gun info on a sticker. Also has a test target dates 1916... which seems closer to where that date would align. It's hard being 700 miles from home, without any way to research except an iPhone.

Looks good for a 103 year old gun... if that date is accurate. I have to stop back in NJ before going out to Georgia for training. Will likely print out a letter request and mail it in at that time.

Congrats on your move here. For the time being we are still a free state. New bunch at the state capital would like to change that. May want to look on the GOME website. Good group.
Good deals do pop up at gun shops from time to time.

 

[squidsix]

I moved to Maine a coulple of years ago, and my Smith and Wesson collection has certainly grown since. (I live less than one mile from Kittery Trading Post)

 

[Screwball]

great find - but be aware that if your 03 c+r has your NJ address bringing it back to NJ is a first class felony under state law unless you have first obtained a NJ pistol permit to purchase it - transaction totally legal under federal law - out of state transactions of long arms would be legal if you possess a valid FID

but not on handguns - NJ does not recognize the 03 - don't ask how I learned this or how much it cost me - good luck on your move to a more friendly state

Pistol permits are only valid within NJ (written on the actual permits)... and last time I checked, NJ law has no jurisdiction outside of NJ. I'm currently carrying my 642-1 with hollow-points (Hornady 147 grain XTP; 9mm), in Maine. Are they going to arrest me upon return?

NJ has recognized the FFL-03 since the last round of legislation being put through. Someone who wrote the law must have been friendly with a C&R holder... because it is there. If a buyer and seller both have FFL-03s, NICS is not required (NICS is now required on all purchases; are exceptions, with C&R on the list).

The FID has two uses; purchasing things within NJ (predominantly long guns, but ammo is also lumped in), and transporting long guns. You can own firearms within NJ without a FID. Transportation... must go between the list of places, and only to/from (no deviations). FID allows you to leave a long gun in your trunk, and going wherever after you get done at the range, for example. Handguns... still have to follow transportation laws (FID or not).

Sorry, I have no issue with bringing it back... and neither ATF nor NJSP see it as breaking a law. If I was buying from a NJ resident, outside of NJ... to try and get around NICS/permits... yes, that could be an issue. But the rest, I disagree with you. With that logic, if you lived in PA and bought a 1911, you'd be breaking the law if you moved to NJ... since you didn't get a pistol permit when you bought it. Or buying an air-pistol or blackpowder revolver in PA... and taking it home. As long you follow the transportation laws of NJ... there is no 2C statute that can be applied to any of these situations.

Just wanted to respond to this post specifically and get it out of the way. Not looking to turn the thread into NJ legality. PM me if you want to continue the conversation. That being said, going to answer specifics questions in the next post. Figured I'll take some better shots of it at the same time.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Nice looking M&P! Probably shipped in 1919. I noticed the front sight has been modified. The finish looks really good for a 100 year old gun. Congratulations!

 

[Waveski]

Nice old M&P - especially the grips.

Has the front sight been modified?

 

[Waveski]

Darn - Wiregrassguy beat me to the draw!

 

[Screwball]

At least on your picture I don't see the sideplate logo, which would put it after mid-1917.

Sideplate is blank.

Nice revolver. The grips wopuld have had me looking at it right away. I know someone who needs those exact grips and they ain't cheap to find. Did someone modify the front sight slightly, as I would think it should be a half-moon front sight?

Yea, I have my laptop... however, none of my books. Also, was in my hotel room... and a decent enough hike that I wasn't going to go back and forth to do it.

It's nice up here. Boring, and have to drive to get almost everything... but feel comfortable moving up here. Good town, but only reason I did was for the job (CBP).

Grips are what drew me to it. Want to clean them up, but don't have anything up here to do it comfortably. Not even considering pulling the sideplate, because I don't have any of my screwdrivers.

There is some use evident on the wood... but with the wear on the metal looks as if this was a duty gun. Really want to see what a letter turns up.

Front sight... didn't notice it until mentioned. It does looked modified.

 

[larryofcc]

Here is my M&P 3rd change # 230842, shipped 12-1916. The revolver would be mint, except some joker with slippery hands dropped it. Luckily it was not damaged too much. Big Larry

 

[moosedog]

Nice catch. I'm thinking 6 1/2 inches on that barrel. The front sight doesn't look like it's been taken down in height. It should shoot just fine.

 

[Screwball]

Nice catch. I'm thinking 6 1/2 inches on that barrel. The front sight doesn't look like it's been taken down in height. It should shoot just fine.

Was thinking about it for a little bit... then realized the Leatherman in my car has a ruler on the side of the handles.

6" barrel.

 

[schutzen-jager]

Pistol permits are only valid within NJ (written on the actual permits)... and last time I checked, NJ law has no jurisdiction outside of NJ. I'm currently carrying my 642-1 with hollow-points (Hornady 147 grain XTP; 9mm), in Maine. Are they going to arrest me upon return?

NJ has recognized the FFL-03 since the last round of legislation being put through. Someone who wrote the law must have been friendly with a C&R holder... because it is there. If a buyer and seller both have FFL-03s, NICS is not required (NICS is now required on all purchases; are exceptions, with C&R on the list).

The FID has two uses; purchasing things within NJ (predominantly long guns, but ammo is also lumped in), and transporting long guns. You can own firearms within NJ without a FID. Transportation... must go between the list of places, and only to/from (no deviations). FID allows you to leave a long gun in your trunk, and going wherever after you get done at the range, for example. Handguns... still have to follow transportation laws (FID or not).

Sorry, I have no issue with bringing it back... and neither ATF nor NJSP see it as breaking a law. If I was buying from a NJ resident, outside of NJ... to try and get around NICS/permits... yes, that could be an issue. But the rest, I disagree with you. With that logic, if you lived in PA and bought a 1911, you'd be breaking the law if you moved to NJ... since you didn't get a pistol permit when you bought it. Or buying an air-pistol or blackpowder revolver in PA... and taking it home. As long you follow the transportation laws of NJ... there is no 2C statute that can be applied to any of these situations.

Just wanted to respond to this post specifically and get it out of the way. Not looking to turn the thread into NJ legality. PM me if you want to continue the conversation. That being said, going to answer specifics questions in the next post. Figured I'll take some better shots of it at the same time.

for your own good while your still in NJ , check with the NJSP , the NJ attorney generals office , + Nappen or other firearms lawyer - I had an 03 for over 30 years + I recently learned the facts the hard way -

 

[Absalom]

Sideplate is blank.

Yep, it falls right into the war-time logo-less period. They started back up in 1920, but with the small logo on the left instead.

 

[Sgt Neutron]

I don't think the test target is original. On the bottom the target maker address has a Zip Code listed. Zip Codes didn't exist until 1963.

 

[delcrossv]

I don't think the test target is original. On the bottom the target maker address has a Zip Code listed. Zip Codes didn't exist until 1963.

Neither is the box, but it's a nice gun. The ground front sight is interesting, wonder why someone would do that. (???)

 

[Screwball]

Moving to Maine, Found a Nice M&P

I don't think the test target is original. On the bottom the target maker address has a Zip Code listed. Zip Codes didn't exist until 1963.

Thanks for that! Didn't really look into it. Noticed it an NRA target, which seemed off... but that is a great catch (would think the target would just be regular paper). When other members were saying 1917ish... I was scratching my head on how a target could be marked the year prior. Makes sense.

So, probably can toss that into the garbage. Not a fan of fake stuff laying around.

One good thing, it is a M&P. I bought a few speedloaders for my Oswald's Victory copy, so they will work with this. Might have to find a period correct holster...

Neither is the box, but it's a nice gun. The ground front sight is interesting, wonder why someone would do that. (???)

Yea, figured the box wasn't right... looked way too new than cardboard of that time. Someone typed the serial number wrong, as well. Put an I instead of a 1 (also realize the complete serial is in the first picture... oh well).

Front sight... maybe holster interference?

 

[jmace57]

I have 291046 which shipped in June, 1919.

 

[bulletslap]

Now about the test target, was there a flying Deloren in the parking lot of the Gun Shop?

 

[tenntex32]

I don't think the test target is original. On the bottom the target maker address has a Zip Code listed. Zip Codes didn't exist until 1963.

The National Target Company has only been in business for about 60 years per their website:

"National Target is a leading manufacturer of Official NRA, law enforcement, and specialty targets. We have been producing quality targets that meet exacting NRA specifications for over 60 years, and proudly hold NRA License No.1."

The National Target Company, Inc



National Target Company
3958-D Dartmouth Court
Frederick, MD 21703
E-mail: [email protected]
Questions/Comments Line: (301) 874-4767
24 Hour Fax Line: (301) 874-4764
Toll-Free Order Line: (800) 827-7060
Office Hours: 9 AM - 4 PM, E.S.T. Monday - Friday

The National Target Company, Inc



Makes me wonder as to the why...…….

Dale

 

[Screwball]

I have 291046 which shipped in June, 1919.

Mine is 790 past yours. Should be within 1919. [emoji106]

Makes me wonder as to the why...…….

People try to get more money for things... acting like they have stuff that they really didn't have.

The girl at the shop bought it, and supposedly sat there for a little bit. With the surplus rifles, and what she said to a guy that wanted to sell a Mauser... I don't think older firearms usually go through there. She might have been trying to get one over (she told me the gun was made either 1920 or 1921), but I was sold before that came out of the box. Was actually more concerned with her having that 1 in the serial number as an I in her book... being I know she was going to be selling the business. She did say she knew the box was wrong... so doubt she got duped with it.

I paid $450 for it... which I'm happy with. I like the lineage of what became the Model 10. Didn't need it, but it is something I bought at the start of my career. Likely will keep it around just for that reason.

 

[silvercobra]

Screw ball welcome to the state been here all my life 63 years, it's pretty weird that you just showed that gun because On Sunday I bought one really similar s#395XXX with the same grips, the grips are why I bought it the gun is nice too, bought it at a gun show, also bought a really nice m53 with LR inserts

 

[JP@AK]

She might have been trying to get one over (she told me the gun was made either 1920 or 1921)

Well . . .

I wouldn't be too hard on her. She was pretty darn close! Lacking the Made in U.S.A. puts it before 1922. Being off by a year or so, isn't bad, given some of the really stupid things we hear from gun shop owners and even the newer S&W employees who answer the phones.

 

[Alk8944]

A quick tutorial on how to tell the barrel length of any standard barrel S&W revolver, specifically K-Frame:

First, if the revolver is later than a 1902 or 1905 2nd change then the gun is a 6", not a 6 1/2" as the 6 1/2" barrel was discontinued with the 3rd change ca. 1909, approximately 146,900.

Second, a point at the front of the barrel lug radius is 3" from the breech end of the barrel. If the muzzle is slightly more than 1" (a finger width) ahead of the lug the gun is a 4". If 2" ( 2 finger widths) the gun is a 5". And if the distance to the muzzle and the length from the breech end of the barrel to the front of the barrel lug radius are equal then the gun is a 6". One of the most precise abilities of the human eye is the ability to accurately judge the midpoint of a line!

It's just that easy! Now you don't have to guess between a 6" and 6 1/2" anymore!

 

[ABPOS]

Beautiful. Very nice. Looks like a 6" to me. But I'm no expert.

 

[Screwball]

Moving to Maine, Found a Nice M&P

Screw ball welcome to the state been here all my life 63 years, it's pretty weird that you just showed that gun because On Sunday I bought one really similar s#395XXX with the same grips, the grips are why I bought it the gun is nice too, bought it at a gun show, also bought a really nice m53 with LR inserts

Thanks. Been a little bored up here, but think it is more being away from home/stuck in a hotel. Wanted to look at houses today, but the realtor I'm working with has been dealing with a jerk realtor, who is being a pain because I refused to use him... and he is supposedly the main "realtor" in Houlton. Came up on Saturday to scout out the area, and wanted to look at houses Monday through Wednesday, since I start Thursday... but only looking at a single house tomorrow. Everyone I've talked to about him (jerk) said never to use him, and if it is a house he has a hand in, go over it well... because he doesn't disclose things that he knows are wrong.

They have a gun show up here later in April... but I'll be in FLETC for that. I'll catch the one next year. [emoji106]

Well . . .



I wouldn't be too hard on her. She was pretty darn close! Lacking the Made in U.S.A. puts it before 1922. Being off by a year or so, isn't bad, given some of the really stupid things we hear from gun shop owners and even the newer S&W employees who answer the phones.

Absolutely not... she originally thought C&Rs were 100 years old. When I said 50, she jumped on the computer and had no issue with it once she confirmed everything. She and me both were trying to figure out what the age was... because when she saw that target, she was confused with the serial number (think her husband got her the date). She wanted to make sure it was C&R... and accepted it when I said they started the Model numbers in the 1950s... so definitely over that 50 year limit.

Mentioning S&W... was driving around Houlton, and saw their plant out by the airport. I'll be working maybe a mile from there. If you ever get an M&P slide that is messed up... just remember they have a weed shop a block and a half away from the plant. [emoji41] Might have been a long break.

It's just that easy! Now you don't have to guess between a 6" and 6 1/2" anymore!

Appreciate the heads up... but I cheated and used a ruler on my multi-tool. It is 6".

I actually just downloaded the Supica/Nahas book... which went over that info, as well. To be honest, I bought it for having the reference on my phone... because I eventually want to get a 1917... but the info on the 942 made it worth it to me. Have pretty much an identical gun sitting on the nightstand... minus the ports and redone in NP3 Plus.

 

[Waveski]

I don't think the test target is original. On the bottom the target maker address has a Zip Code listed. Zip Codes didn't exist until 1963.

Looks like whoever produced that target took the trouble to use a fountain type pen , and found someone capable of nice looking old fashion cursive. And to think - that NRA logo goes way back to 1916.