mp sport 2 scoped shooting very low

[rodney winston]

ive shot 55 and 62 grain tula and first time initial sight in. when i got to 100 yard re sight in shot a box of pmc bronze 55 grain to try to get groups they were pushin 3 inch but no keyhole that was visible. after seeing how low it was at 200 i pulled that much hold over on a 225yard 2x3 steel plate the pings sounded same as normal ar 15 round strikes.that is why im seeing af anybody knows if a bullet can fly slightly canted down making aerodynamics off because only gravity and wind make bullets alter from thier origional straight line from barrel thus slight down angle the air would make bullet drop faster than the normal and loose velocity faster.hope when i get rifle back they can explain it to me instead of just saying they replaced barrel or reciever because this seems impossible.this fact i agree with everybody

 

[Newhouse]

Did you try other brands of ammo besides pmc and tula or at least from different lot?
Also did you remove the flash hider to inspect the condition of the crown?
Anyway, intersted to hear what S&W have done to your rifle when you get back.

 

[C J]

With even just 2 types of ammo it doesn't seem likely the problem is ammo related. The chances of two different types of ammo being off that much are pretty slim IMO. I don't think it's a scope mounting issue either. That's just too much of a difference at 100 yards compared to 40 yards. The OP has shot other firearms and apparently has enough knowledge to get those to work right. So user error doesn't seem very likely to me. If the rifle is hitting at 40 yards and 10" low at 100 yards there's something fishy going on IMO.

I'd have to guess that it's a barrel issue. And that's not good. Problems happen with all gun makers. My Sport is right on the money from 40 yards to 140 yards using the irons. Line of sight issues are the same with iron sights as they are with scopes. It could just be the bore was drilled badly. But I really wonder about that too since a badly drilled bore should cause erratic shooting in more ways than described.

Without being there to check out the rifle myself I can't hazard a guess that fits all the conditions. Sending the rifle back to S&W was the right idea IMO. You'll find out for sure if there's a problem. Just make sure they actually test the rifle while they have it. Sometimes companies will fire at a certain distance and if things are right there they send your rifle back saying it's OK. I've had that happen to me on a rifle that was keyholing badly. Apparently my problem was a nub in the crown because it stopped shooting keyholes all of a sudden like it never happened. I was about to send it back a second time when it started shooting right. It shoots great now. It must have knocked down a num with enough bullets hitting it to do the job.

You could have an issue like that. A barrel issue of some kind just seems likely to me.

 

[REM 3200]

Just to satisfy my poor old brain, where did the 40 yard zero come from? A 50 yard zero as the bullet is on it's way up will give a zero of just a little over 200 yards with a 5.56mm 55 gr. bullet. I don't think I have ever seen anyone zero at 40 yds. before. Just curious.

 

[Rastoff]

Just to satisfy my poor old brain, where did the 40 yard zero come from?

This was my question too. Then I remembered that many like to use 36 meters (39.4 yards) to zero their gun. Using this zero will give a decent hit range from very close all the way out to 300 meters.

I don't like this because the POI at 100 yards would be higher than I'd like. Still, it is a common zero distance these days.

 

[uncledoggle]

At one time there was a very good video on Youtube, since removed, that gave a excellent arguement for a 36 yd. zero. Short version: All hits between 25 and 300 yds. would be in the vitals. And at 400 yds. the bad guy becomes a soprano.

 

[Kadonny]

At one time there was a very good video on Youtube, since removed, that gave a excellent arguement for a 36 yd. zero. Short version: All hits between 25 and 300 yds. would be in the vitals. And at 400 yds. the bad guy becomes a soprano.

That's actually a great thought for a battle rifle. It's not about punching holes in a bullseye, it's about body mass hits and thoughtless aiming.

 

[rodney winston]

im normaly shooting hunting rifles with medium mounts scope 1 and 1/4 to 1 and 1/2 inch above barrel -center of scope to center of barrel- i use 25 yards for this. because of taller mounts just moved out a lil thought it would be closer to 100 yard 1 to 2 inch high. my main goal is to get on paper at 200 yards so i can get 200 yard zero so i can hit coyote size game from 10 to 300 yards with out too much guess work.

 

[mbliss57]

This is a very interesting problem..I am really hoping S&W gives an explanation of the problem not just a replaced barrel or something like that and noting explaining the issue. Please keep us posted when you hear from S&W. I have also learned something about a 40 yard zero. Something new to me..but it does make sense for hunting.

 

[Rastoff]

This is a very interesting problem..I am really hoping S&W gives an explanation of the problem not just a replaced barrel or something like that...

They won't. In fact, they'll most likely just replace the barrel without doing any troubleshooting.

 

[rodney winston]

got it back from s&w

just as somebody said they will just replace the barrel and send it back. exactly what they did no sorry thanks for patients or more important what was wrong in the first place. put same scope and rings on bore sighted and went to range got rough on at 40 moved to 100 was about 3 inches high which was about what where it should be went straight to 200 for moment of truth was about 8 in high then got my 200 yard zero ish after another dozen rounds. i say zero ish i was using pmc 55 grain bronze ammo and was getting 3 to pushing 4 inch groups at 200. i know the creepy mushy break trigger didnt help but it was almost identicle to preformance of groups i was shooting with my buddys ruger.the bushmaster target model with 20 inch heavy i was shooting was keeping under 2 inch groups but it is a 1000 dollar rifle. any advise on what type of ammo and or grain bullet mp15s like and any advise on sub 150 dollar trigger that breaks crisp with no creep

 

[crracer_712]

I like my RRA 2 stage national match Varmint and Ruger Elite 452 triggers. They are identical to one another and all mine average 3.5lb pull. Bought the Varmints for 77 each and the Ruger @115(I had bought two Ruger, loved them, and wanted more but @ cheaper price, searched and found the varmint, tried one and found it identical in every aspect, bought 4 more).

As for accurate ammo, I just shoot whatever is cheap in bulk brass and have found that all my rifles seem to get excellent results when reloading using 25 grain varget using 55 grain Hornday SP bullets. I basically use the bulk for 100 yards and under.

 

[uncledoggle]

I have both Timney and Hipertouch 24C. Both are excellent.

There have been several threads on triggers here, you might want to do a "Search" on the subject. Lots of information and opinions.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

First you have to make a decision on what type of trigger and weight best fits your needs. Once that is determined.... If you're going to spend $150 on a trigger might as well spend $250 and get a Geissele or Wilson Combat. I have a WC TTU single stage 4lb. Perfect for my use.

 

[Rastoff]

I have both Timney and Hipertouch 24C. Both are excellent.

You have both and think they are both excellent? Hmmm, have you compared them because I don't see how they can both be excellent.

I've considered the Hipertouch, but haven't bought one because of this from their website, "Same Creep as MIL-spec stock FCG." The creep is the worst part of the MIL-SPEC trigger. It has a ton of creep.

I'm not sure you need to spend $250 to get a good trigger though. I've got one of these:

The advertised pull weight is 4lbs. Mine measures 3lbs 9oz on my Lyman gauge. It's lighter than advertised, but quite consistent and almost creep free. I've used Timney triggers that were better, but I don't see the need to spend an extra $100.

Further, the 15 minute trigger job is really a good idea: 15 Minute Practical Trigger Job for the AR-15 I've done this to a few ARs and the result is amazing. The best part is it costs $0 to do. There is still the issue of creep though.

I haven't ordered one of these yet, but it's on my list:

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The creep in your M&P trigger isn't just for shooter annoyance.

For example, the safety doesn't mechanically block the the hammer from falling forward and striking the firing pin. The safety only blocks the trigger. The only thing holding back the hammer is sear engagement. So who cares, right?

To reduce creep, sear engagement area is reduced. When you hear of near zero creep triggers, there is very little sear engagement area. So what happens if the rifle is dropped or is slammed up against something? There's a potential for the hammer to slip off the trigger and go bang. It's an important concept to understand for a rifle that isn't designated strictly for bench play, and is one of the reasons I chose a WC trigger. They design their TTU with a 1911 style "Half-Cock Notch" which prevents the hammer from falling all the way forward and striking the firing pin unless the trigger is depressed which can't be done with the safety engaged. This is why Wilson is able to describe their triggers as The Safest AR Trigger on The Market and Allows The TTU to Meet or Exceed Military Specifications For Drop Safety

Creep is much less noticeable when engagement surfaces are polished, removing the gritty feeling and trigger stacking. Polished surfaces of course produce less friction so the trigger pull will be lighter. Simply installing a JP lighter spring kit to lesson trigger pull weight is a poor choice for a rifle designated for SD because it reduces the force the hammer strikes the firing pin. This can cause light strikes resulting in failure to fire, particularly with harder primers and is generally a poor idea IMO. The is how Brownells advertises the JP reduced power spring kit. ----- This spring setup will give good ignition reliability with domestically manufactured ammunition and properly seated primers. Do not use foreign-manufactured ammunition because the primers in such ammo are often extremely hard and will give poor ignition with this spring kit. These springs are designed for recreational use ONLY and should NOT be installed in a Duty or Home Defense firearm where reliability is foremost.AR-15 REDUCED POWER SPRING KIT | Brownells

Design and materials translates to reliability and consistency over many thousands of trigger pulls as well as safety are all part of a FCG. Select the right one that best meets the intended role for the rifle.

Here's a good animation explaining how the trigger in your M&P works.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh2FjzVVIZY[/ame]

 

[Magload]

You have both and think they are both excellent? Hmmm, have you compared them because I don't see how they can both be excellent.

I've considered the Hipertouch, but haven't bought one because of this from their website, "Same Creep as MIL-spec stock FCG." The creep is the worst part of the MIL-SPEC trigger. It has a ton of creep.

I'm not sure you need to spend $250 to get a good trigger though. I've got one of these:

The advertised pull weight is 4lbs. Mine measures 3lbs 9oz on my Lyman gauge. It's lighter than advertised, but quite consistent and almost creep free. I've used Timney triggers that were better, but I don't see the need to spend an extra $100.

Further, the 15 minute trigger job is really a good idea: 15 Minute Practical Trigger Job for the AR-15 I've done this to a few ARs and the result is amazing. The best part is it costs $0 to do. There is still the issue of creep though.

I haven't ordered one of these yet, but it's on my list:

I have the Hipertouch ECL on my Bench AR15 I built with the 2 lb springs. No creep in fact you better not be putting any pressure on the trigger if you don't want it to break. I would have to put the 4 lb springs in if I was going to use the gun for anything else but don't see that happening. Don

 

[rodney winston]

do timney triggers have creep? looking for a clean break compairable to bolt action rifles.i actualy like 2 stage triggers like i have in my rws 48 air rifle [ lil creep stop bang ] with slightly more pressure exellent for offhand shooting.

 

[uncledoggle]

You have both and think they are both excellent? Hmmm, have you compared them because I don't see how they can both be excellent.

I've considered the Hipertouch, but haven't bought one because of this from their website, "Same Creep as MIL-spec stock FCG." The creep is the worst part of the MIL-SPEC trigger. It has a ton of creep.

I'm not sure you need to spend $250 to get a good trigger though. I've got one of these:

The advertised pull weight is 4lbs. Mine measures 3lbs 9oz on my Lyman gauge. It's lighter than advertised, but quite consistent and almost creep free. I've used Timney triggers that were better, but I don't see the need to spend an extra $100.

Further, the 15 minute trigger job is really a good idea: 15 Minute Practical Trigger Job for the AR-15 I've done this to a few ARs and the result is amazing. The best part is it costs $0 to do. There is still the issue of creep though.

I haven't ordered one of these yet, but it's on my list:

Yes, they are both excellent. The Timney is in a M&P15, the Hipertouch in a Colt Competition, set up for bench use. Two different rifles, with two different purposes. Neither trigger has any creep.

 

[vonn]

Was hoping for a more definitive answer than just changing the barrel but as long as it shoots better I guess you came out ok. Finding ammo your gun likes does a lot of improving to your group size.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Of course different triggers will better accomodate different guns for different uses. Same can be said for same guns being used for different purposes, or the same purpose but under different conditions. For example, Chattanooga has a fairly mild climate, but if I lived up north and did a lot of gloved winter shooting I would have selected a different trigger.

Selecting a trigger that well accommodates what you're doing can require a bit of thought. However, the right trigger can make more of a difference in how you and the rifle perform than most anything else.

 

[rodney winston]

trigger

geissele 2 stage g2s trigger from cheaper than dirt 165$ would this be a good choice was going to get rock river but they are back orderd for several months according to some purchasers

 

[Rastoff]

I won't order anything from CTD. They threw us under the bus after Sandy Hook. However, that is a good price on a really nice trigger.

The other question is, have you used a two stage trigger before? If you haven't, I highly recommend trying one before buying one. They are not for everyone and can take some getting used to.

The trigger I pictured above can be had from JoeBob Outfitters for $150 and I really like it.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

geissele 2 stage g2s trigger from cheaper than dirt 165$ would this be a good choice was going to get rock river but they are back orderd for several months according to some purchasers

Be a good choice for what?

You said you like two stage triggers so that choice you've already made. So......... Geissele makes a lot of triggers that are good choices depending on what you are looking for. IIRC, you posted that you bought your rifle because you thought it would be accurate and put a big 4-12x optic on it. Well... that would indicate you are looking for a trigger geared more for target shooting than duty/home defense. If that's correct, the SSAE is designed more for target shooting, the G2S is more for duty/home defense. What is a "good choice" is lagerly dependent on what you intend to do with the rifle. That's something only YOU can answer.

 

[rodney winston]

thanks i mostly target shoot and shoot crows groundhawgs ect. i own 2 rws airrifles and have always loved 2 stage triggers thanks for heads up on cheaper than dirt i looked elsewhere [joe bobs]and found it for 156$ will be here 7-10 days. what did cheaper than dirt do after sandyhook never heard of this

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If some of you notice posts missing it's because I deleted about 20 that we nothing but rehashing the post Sandy Hook gun buying frenzy.