Musings on the M1 carbine

[Buick]

Wish ole Sgt Mize would weigh in on the supposed ineffective and unreliable m1, m2, and m3 carbines with their "weak anemic round" lol. Have to admit however that I've fired a few old carbines that needed a new recoil spring before they would run reliably. Strangely enough the issue 15 round magazine has always impressed me as plenty robust. I've owned a half dozen carbines over the years, some well worn overseas returns, they all shot just fine with military spec ball. Most would shoot the Rem or Winchester soft points just as reliably as well. I trusted the carbine completely, enough to leave it with my wife and girls when I was away working.

 

[Greyman50]

The M1 carbine prices have have steadily increased over the years. Not too long ago you could buy a real nice one for $350. I bought this Inland from the widow of a very senior Air America pilot. So senior that Mary lived on TSN air base for 2 years. Regular AA line pilots didn't get to bring their wives to the combat zone. She also sold to me his 1911A1 and several other items that belonged to here husband. I tried to buy his AA ID bracelet but she was not ready to let it go.View attachment 761127View attachment 761128View attachment 761131

Looks like an original para Carbine? Have you looked up serial number in “ War Baby”?

 

[smithman 10]

My only experience shooting an M-1 Carbine was in 1971 our once a year USAF qualification. In West Berlin then I guess they did not have enough M-16s at the time.

Kinda loose and rattled - most likely had been there since 1945 but as I remember fun to shoot and went bang every trigger pull.

Would like to have one now but not at today's prices. Should have bought one when CMP had them for sale some years ago.

 

[AJ]

Use Canfield's book on the M1 Garand & M1 Carbine. You can old find date blocks and then try to match the receiver date and barrel date to those. Both I had were in the right blocks. Yes, I have War Baby also.

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

Use Canfield's book on the M1 Garand & M1 Carbine. You can old find date blocks and then try to match the receiver date and barrel date to those. Both I had were in the right blocks. Yes, I have War Baby also.

War Baby is a treasure. I love looking at all the color photos of the carbine factories. Can’t get that anywhere else.

 

[rwsmith]

I spent five months in 'Indian Country' west of DaNang back in 1965-66, and carried an M-1 carbine as well as a 1911. My carbine was a great tool, never let me down, and I own one today that's 80 years old and still shoots very well. I had a bit of brain-fade one afternoon and bought a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine. Whoa, Nellie! Substantial recoil, but the flame from the barrel was downright intimidating! It can be used to start campfires, for sure. Not nearly as much fun as the M-1 carbine, for sure.

As I've mentioned before, I'm a carbine NUT and the .30 carbine is on my wish list. I love the Garand-like, but much lighter action. If it was my job to carry a military rifle around the M-1 Carbine would be a top choice. DEFINITELY not a Garand. Too front heavy for me. I seriously doubt I'll ever come across a .30 carbine I'll be able to afford, though.

 

[SASFixer]

I find it interesting that there are those who bemoan the “wimpy” M1 carbine and it’s .30 caliber carbine round while at the same time they extol the destructive power of the M1911 and it’s “flying ashtray” .45 ACP round. I took a WWII vintage M1 carbine and M1911A1 out to the range today for some steel target plinking and wondered how many people have had the opportunity to shoot a M1 carbine and M1911 at the same setting, because those that have would know that the .45 ACP is a fine handgun round, but considering the .30 caliber carbine round “wimpy” would only be relevant when it’s compared to the .30-06 round fired by its protégée of the period, the M1 rifle.

As history teaches us, in the late 1930s, the Ordnance Department began the search for a light carbine-type long arm for combat support troops, officers and non-commissioned officers as a substitute for the Model 1911A1 pistol. The Army felt that such a rifle would prove easier for the troops to shoot far more accurately than the pistol. As it turned out, many soldiers to whom .45 pistols were issued refused to give them up and demanded they also be issued the new M1 carbine.

I’m not going to pull out all the ballistic charts and compare power factors and such because I can tell you by the response of the steel targets I was shooting today the .30 caliber carbine round is no wimp when used for its intended purpose. Certainly, the .30 carbine is no .30-06, but a .30-06 would come up short when compared to a .50 BMG round too. But compared to the M1911 in .45 ACP, the M1 carbine is more accurate, has longer effective range, has larger magazine capacity, and can be argued it’s much easier to shoot.

I have personally fired a M1 carbine at a level IIA ballistic vest hanging over a ¼ inch sheet of plywood. At 25 yards the FMJ round penetrated the front panel, the plywood, and the back panel. Using expanding bullets for the same test the round lodged in the back panel. Now, I’ve heard the lore that has been repeated from the Korean War about the .30 caliber carbine round not penetrating frozen Chinese winter coats. I wasn’t there so I don’t know and I wouldn’t contradict those veterans who say it’s so, but it does make me wonder if the M1 carbine was being used tactically on the battlefield, shooting at ranges as though it was a M1 rifle that far exceeded the effective range of the M1 carbine.

So, with ballistic performance which exceeds that of a .357 magnum from a 16 inch barrel lever gun, I have deduced that the M1 carbine is certainly no power house firearm, but “wimpy” just don’t fit the bill either.

Due to the severe cold, the powder in the M1 Carbine Rounds during the winter incidents of not penetration Chinese clothing, the powder may have not completely ignited (temperature sensitive) or reached complete burn.

 

[AJ]

Due to the severe cold, the powder in the M1 Carbine Rounds during the winter incidents of not penetration Chinese clothing, the powder may have not completely ignited (temperature sensitive) or reached complete burn.

Never heard that one before............where did you read or hear that?

 

[CactusCal]

does anyone know about the French prohibition against military ammo m-1 carbines ? so the necked down to .22 and were legally sold there. never saw more data, but might be good to own.

 

[Matt_X]

does anyone know about the French prohibition against military ammo m-1 carbines ? so the necked down to .22 and were legally sold there. never saw more data, but might be good to own.

This thread at the Carbine Club may, at least in part, answer your question.

A word from France - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1

Hi,I am a French man interested in weapons and with specifically a soft spot for the "la petite...

www.uscarbinecal30.com

It seems there were some alternative cartridges used in France.

One of the more active forum members is also a competitive shooter in France. He posted info about their competitions in this thread. By inference it seems .30 Carbine is the cartridge primarily used France as of present.

Range Results - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 7

I always look forward to your range reports. VERY nice shooting!

www.uscarbinecal30.com

 

[Bdqadvisor]

Carried an M1, then an M2, with the paratrooper stock for more than 2 tears in VN. When my ARVN Battalion was sent to Trung Lap for retraining, they were issued M16s, M60s, and M79,turning in all their WW2 vintage gear. Went back to my M2 after less than 3 weeks with the 16. Just liked it better.

 

[restewartjr]

Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons posits that “it can’t penetrate Chinese clothing” is a myth. Instead, he suggests that since many Korea-era issued carbines were M-2’s, the problem was misses, not stopping power. Due to its low mass, an M-2 on full auto is difficult to control. Although a popular request among troops, and even some field modifications having been made late in WW2, conversion to full auto fire was never documented to be effective. The original stated intent for the carbine was to provide a more effective replacement for the 1911 pistol among non-rifleman troops. Its lighter weight, easier loading, increased capacity and increase in load-out quantity at similar weight made it a popularity contest winner. That popularity win, in my opinion, landed it in the hands of troops who should have been issued a battle rifle. Both Ian McCollum and Paul Harrell performed tests on the M-1 carbine as a penetrator and a Harrell demonstrated simulated tissue damage through layers of cloth. By the way, I harvested my first deer with a carbine, back in 1967. I’ve been a fan ever since.

 

[SASFixer]

Never heard that one before............where did you read or hear that?

In the world of reloading and ammunition manufacturing it is a known fact that the performance of smokeless powder is affected by temperature. In elevated temperatures, loads developed at 70-80 degrees F can and do demonstrate high pressure characteristics such as vertical stringing on a target, flattened primers. Likewise ammunition developed at normal temperature can demonstrate lower impacts on a target at reduced temperatures. One of the important characteristics of powder brands pointed out by powder manufacturers is "temperature stability". In Korea, the temperatures the ammunition and soldiers experienced was recorded in negative double digits. I would think the burning performance would be affected. I once had a friend who was in Korea during the early 1950s relate a story, of a canteen cup of steaming coffee being frozen in minutes, and that he visually watched the event taking place. I myself, when competing in Service Rifle, insure that my ammunition is not subjected to direct sunlight, brass cases seem to soak up a lot of radiation and get hot to the touch.

 

[AJ]

In the world of reloading and ammunition manufacturing it is a known fact that the performance of smokeless powder is affected by temperature. In elevated temperatures, loads developed at 70-80 degrees F can and do demonstrate high pressure characteristics such as vertical stringing on a target, flattened primers. Likewise ammunition developed at normal temperature can demonstrate lower impacts on a target at reduced temperatures. One of the important characteristics of powder brands pointed out by powder manufacturers is "temperature stability". In Korea, the temperatures the ammunition and soldiers experienced was recorded in negative double digits. I would think the burning performance would be affected. I once had a friend who was in Korea during the early 1950s relate a story, of a canteen cup of steaming coffee being frozen in minutes, and that he visually watched the event taking place. I myself, when competing in Service Rifle, insure that my ammunition is not subjected to direct sunlight, brass cases seem to soak up a lot of radiation and get hot to the touch.

I understand what heat and cold does to ammo. I know match shooters who use a small cooler to try to regulate the temp of their ammo. Have been deployed inside the article circle for NATO Exercises. Not a real fun place to be for this Florida kid. Just had never heard anyone mention the cold weather effecting the ammo. I have heard that any lubrication on a weapon could casue it to freeze up in those conditions. Have heard of the troops urinating on guns to unfreeze the bolts to get them to operate. Also have been told to not lubricate the weapons in those temps, so they could not freeze up.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

IMHO the failures of the M-1 Carbine in Korea were due to groggy, exhausted and sleep-deprived GIs and Marines trying to fight off Chinese hordes at 0200 in freezing weather.

 

[AJ]

IMHO the failures of the M-1 Carbine in Korea were due to groggy, exhausted and sleep-deprived GIs and Marines trying to fight off Chinese hordes at 0200 in freezing weather.

I would say that, that has something to do with it.

 

[bph9]

This thread at the Carbine Club may, at least in part, answer your question.

A word from France - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1

Hi,I am a French man interested in weapons and with specifically a soft spot for the "la petite...

www.uscarbinecal30.com

It seems there were some alternative cartridges used in France.

One of the more active forum members is also a competitive shooter in France. He posted info about their competitions in this thread. By inference it seems .30 Carbine is the cartridge primarily used France as of present.

Range Results - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 7

I always look forward to your range reports. VERY nice shooting!

www.uscarbinecal30.com

A few years back during a terrorist attack I saw while watching France 24 News French police carrying Ruger Mini-14 rifles. In my area years ago a gun dealer used to ship a ton of Ruger Firearms to France and many were Ruger revolvers. The French police for a while actually turned in all their semi-auto pistols for revolvers.

During the Post WWII French Indo-China War the French people called "Their dirty War" the U.S. military gave thousands of M1 Carbines and other U.S. Weapons to the French as well as financing about 87% of their war. I often wondered if the French still have all those U.S. M1 Carbines in their military arsenals as it would be nice if they surplused them out to us some day. A decade or or so ago the U.S. got a lot of French military rifles imported here, both bolt action and semi-auto but no M1 Carbines as far as I know.

I might add the Countries of Greece and China got thousands of U.S. 1917 rifles before and during WWII and post WWII South Korea got lots of M1 Garand rifles and I suppose they still have them in their arsenals. But again maybe not as Nato Countries in Europe several years ago demanded that all surplus or obsolete military arms not being used be destroyed to keep them off the used gun market, especially in the U.S. There was also just a few years ago a plan to bring in the Korean M1 Rifles to the U.S. but there was a big Congressional fight to keep them from doing this. I never heard what happened and if they did finally make it here to the U.S. Anyone know if they made it here???

 

[desi2358]

A few years back during a terrorist attack I saw while watching France 24 News French police carrying Ruger Mini-14 rifles. In my area years ago a gun dealer used to ship a ton of Ruger Firearms to France and many were Ruger revolvers. The French police for a while actually turned in all their semi-auto pistols for revolvers.

During the Post WWII French Indo-China War the French people called "Their dirty War" the U.S. military gave thousands of M1 Carbines and other U.S. Weapons to the French as well as financing about 87% of their war. I often wondered if the French still have all those U.S. M1 Carbines in their military arsenals as it would be nice if they surplused them out to us some day. A decade or or so ago the U.S. got a lot of French military rifles imported here, both bolt action and semi-auto but no M1 Carbines as far as I know.

I might add the Countries of Greece and China got thousands of U.S. 1917 rifles before and during WWII and post WWII South Korea got lots of M1 Garand rifles and I suppose they still have them in their arsenals. But again maybe not as Nato Countries in Europe several years ago demanded that all surplus or obsolete military arms not being used be destroyed to keep them off the used gun market, especially in the U.S. There was also just a few years ago a plan to bring in the Korean M1 Rifles to the U.S. but there was a big Congressional fight to keep them from doing this. I never heard what happened and if they did finally make it here to the U.S. Anyone know if they made it here???

Some of the weapons supplied to those countries were delivered the same terms as used under the Lend/Lease acts from WWII. Technically they were still considered US property and couldn't be sold. If they were no longer wanted they had to return them to the US military. Greece had received a lot of Garands & Springfields, not sure about M1917s. If they were paid for by the receiving country they were allowed to sell them. A lot of the rifles from Greece were returned a few years ago and sold off through the CMP. The Korean guns were a mixed lot, some had been paid for, some were not. A lot of Carbines and Garands were imported and sold here in the 1980s and 90s. The later ones were reportedly not documented properly IIRC and anti-gun politics came into play to refuse importation.

As to China I can't recall any quantity of US made guns coming back during the period when China was flooding the US market with surplus guns. I can remember seeing a few 1911 pistols (some of which had been converted to shoot 7.62 Tokarev ammo) but not much else.......... Used up, scrapped or given to "freedom fighters" such as the Huk terrorists in the Philippines? Don't know............ They did export a bunch of Carbine ammo here back then and it was corrosive primed and had fake Lake City head stamps.

Never saw any M1 Carbines among the French imports. Possible they still have some, they do tend to hold onto things for years. It's also possible they were disposed of some time ago, either supplied to former colonies or simply scrapped. Since most of the ammo they produced for them was corrosive they may not have been in the best of shape. Lots of that ammo was sold here years ago and like the Chinese stuff it could rot a bore and the gas piston if not thoroughly cleaned.

 

[AJ]

Some of the weapons supplied to those countries were delivered the same terms as used under the Lend/Lease acts from WWII. Technically they were still considered US property and couldn't be sold. If they were no longer wanted they had to return them to the US military. Greece had received a lot of Garands & Springfields, not sure about M1917s. If they were paid for by the receiving country they were allowed to sell them. A lot of the rifles from Greece were returned a few years ago and sold off through the CMP. The Korean guns were a mixed lot, some had been paid for, some were not. A lot of Carbines and Garands were imported and sold here in the 1980s and 90s. The later ones were reportedly not documented properly IIRC and anti-gun politics came into play to refuse importation.

As to China I can't recall any quantity of US made guns coming back during the period when China was flooding the US market with surplus guns. I can remember seeing a few 1911 pistols (some of which had been converted to shoot 7.62 Tokarev ammo) but not much else.......... Used up, scrapped or given to "freedom fighters" such as the Huk terrorists in the Philippines? Don't know............ They did export a bunch of Carbine ammo here back then and it was corrosive primed and had fake Lake City head stamps.

Never saw any M1 Carbines among the French imports. Possible they still have some, they do tend to hold onto things for years. It's also possible they were disposed of some time ago, either supplied to former colonies or simply scrapped. Since most of the ammo they produced for them was corrosive they may not have been in the best of shape. Lots of that ammo was sold here years ago and like the Chinese stuff it could rot a bore and the gas piston if not thoroughly cleaned.

The Greeks also returned 50 M1 Garands that were still in the factory packing. CMP put them up on the Auction Board there. The ones that I saw all sold for $10,000+ a piece.

 

[BB57]

In the world of reloading and ammunition manufacturing it is a known fact that the performance of smokeless powder is affected by temperature. In elevated temperatures, loads developed at 70-80 degrees F can and do demonstrate high pressure characteristics such as vertical stringing on a target, flattened primers. Likewise ammunition developed at normal temperature can demonstrate lower impacts on a target at reduced temperatures. One of the important characteristics of powder brands pointed out by powder manufacturers is "temperature stability". In Korea, the temperatures the ammunition and soldiers experienced was recorded in negative double digits. I would think the burning performance would be affected. I once had a friend who was in Korea during the early 1950s relate a story, of a canteen cup of steaming coffee being frozen in minutes, and that he visually watched the event taking place. I myself, when competing in Service Rifle, insure that my ammunition is not subjected to direct sunlight, brass cases seem to soak up a lot of radiation and get hot to the touch.

When the US military developed an updated version of M118LR in the form of M118 Special Ball LR and the USN Mk 316 Mod 0, one of the goals was to us a powder with increased temperature stability as we were fighting in the sandbox at the time. The WC750 used in M118LR had an average variation in velocity of 227 fps between - 25F and +165F.

The powder they eventually settled provides just 21 fps average variation over that same temperature range. At the time is was rumored to be similar to Reloader 15.

----

I do chrono my precision loads across the practical range I'll use them and, for example, my preferred .308 168gr SMK load will produce a velocity change of .7 fps per degree F and its pretty close to linear. Consequently, I base my target velocity based on 70 degrees F. if I am working a load up with a new lot of powder at 90 degrees F, I'll look for an average velocity 14 fps higher. Similarly, if I am working up a load with a fresh lot of powder at 40 degrees F, I'll load for an average velocity that is 21 fps less than the benchmark.

The end goal is to be able to pull any lot off the shelf and get predictable performance at any normally encountered ambient temp, and over the last couple decades I've consistently accomplished that. I do however have to accommodate for the velocity change in determining elevation settings, which is easily and quickly done on a whiz wheel with a rotor made for the base temp.