My epiphany on CCW guns

sipowicz

sipowicz

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I have carried some sort of j-frame for the past twenty years. I have also read tons of articles on the latest wazoo tiny pocket rocket auto like the Kel Tec or Seecamp....and most recently, the amazing Shield. It finally hit me after shooting my friend's shield this week, why I resisted all this time. Yes, the revolver is simpler, but I do love large autos like my HP, P2000 or 1911. What I don't like about small autos is the scaled down features. I hate little thumb safeties, little slide releases, tiny mag releases, etc. I have a Beretta Jetfire that stops shooting after a couple of rounds because I accidentally flip up the thumb safety..it also has a mag release on the grip panel which also makes me nervous. I know the Shield is a better design but still....
 
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You make good points.

However, if one is intent on making a change, one can make the change. All it takes is practice.

Years ago, I knew a Dallas constable who made the change from revolver to Sig P226. He was really frustrated that he could not be as accurate as he was with the revolver. In fact, he could not even qualify with the Sig. I offered to buy his Sig!!

Well, he worked with the range instructor and after much practice, he never looked back and carried the Sig.

The same goes for safeties, slide releases, and magazine catches. I am left handed and the magazine catch is always on my palm side. I don't use slide releases. I buy pistols without slide releases or safeties. You can now buy the Shield without a safety. It is not needed, anyway.

In summary, there is a work around, if you really want it!
 
Can't speak about the other pistols you mention, but my Shield doesn't have a scaled down slide stop or mag release, they're the same size as my 40c & 40fs. Don't know about the thumb-safety lever since mine doesn't have one.
 
I know what you mean Sip, but every time you replace the word "tiny" with the word "big" you're also adding weight to that gun. If that doesn't bother you then more power to you, but for me (as much as I love my High Power) the Shield is my new constant companion...and my back thanks me! :D
 
Git'ya a 6906, use the safety for decocking after loading a rd in the chamber. It'll carry 12+1 but I carry 11+1 because I trained with revolvers and it's exactly 2 cylinders. Same with the D/A, long trigger pull on the first shot, no safety lever to fool with. Best part, it carries like a fat Walther PPK. Several wholesalers have them at attractive price points. Joe
 
Most of the time, CC guns and range guns are two different beasts. We carry CC weapons because they meet the criteria we want for that purpose. That criteria doesn't always translate into the best range gun experience. It's important to remember what a tool is for. A screw driver seldom does the job of a hammer.

I have a Shield 9mm and I am lucky because I really enjoy shooting it at the range as well as carrying it day to day. I also enjoy shooting my 1911 and my double stack 9mm at the range, but they do not make for good CC guns (for me).

It's important to practice with your CC gun frequently, but that doesn't mean other guns (non CC) can't be more fun. In my case, the Shield is a gun that works well for both.
 
I recently bought a Sig Sauer 238. Got it cheap as it was a couple hundred off as a ACE hardware fathers day special. A little .380. I even bought a extra magazine and holster. Went and tried it out and it has the worst hardest trigger I ever pulled. Couldnt hit because of it. Its a cute little light bugger but I just may never pack or shoot it again.
 
I have a Ruger LCP in .380.
I find it unpleasant to shoot.
"Snappy" recoil. 1 mag and I am
ready to shoot something else
(Never a problem).
Which is why I bought a Shield.
Shoots like a dream.

Ty
 
CCW Oversight

Most discussions regarding CCW guns revolve around gun size and concealability. I have a different criteria: If you walked into a convenience store and were suddenly in the midst of a shooting incident against three armed adversaries, does the gun you're carrying have sufficient offensive capability and accuracy to engage one or more armed adversaries at distances that could stretch the length of the store and could you hit all three adversaries without a reload?

A retired NYC LEO paid with his life when caught in such a situation on Lower Broadway in Manhattan, at a Radio Shack. He was armed with a Model 36, no reload, engaged what he thought were two adversaries which turned out to be four adversaries, fired five times and missed and was then gunned down.

My minimum carry gun is a Kahr P9 but I most often carry a Glock 19 or a Browning HP, both of which have the offensive capability I feel I'll need should I have no choice but to shoot my way out of a bad situation.
 
Nothing wrong with a revolver, I've carried a 442 for over 30 years and never felt that it was inadequate at all.
We got new M&P's in 40 at work so I started carrying a 40 Compact off duty, and put the 442 in the safe.
Looking to get a Shield now in 40.

The small revolvers are a great back up weapons, and also great for. off duty.
 
The situation described by federali is the reason I carry a Glock model 32 with one extra magazine. The issue of multiple bad guys is growing.

I have also recently added a J frame model 36 to my on duty carry as a second gun, for the same reason.

Part of me wonders about paranoia, but when they are really out to get you, it ain't being paranoid.
 
federali said:
Most discussions regarding CCW guns revolve around gun size and concealability. I have a different criteria: If you walked into a convenience store and were suddenly in the midst of a shooting incident against three armed adversaries, does the gun you're carrying have sufficient offensive capability and accuracy to engage one or more armed adversaries at distances that could stretch the length of the store and could you hit all three adversaries without a reload?

A retired NYC LEO paid with his life when caught in such a situation on Lower Broadway in Manhattan, at a Radio Shack. He was armed with a Model 36, no reload, engaged what he thought were two adversaries which turned out to be four adversaries, fired five times and missed and was then gunned down.

My minimum carry gun is a Kahr P9 but I most often carry a Glock 19 or a Browning HP, both of which have the offensive capability I feel I'll need should I have no choice but to shoot my way out of a bad situation.
Click to expand...

pawncop said:
The situation described by federali is the reason I carry a Glock model 32 with one extra magazine. The issue of multiple bad guys is growing.

I have also recently added a J frame model 36 to my on duty carry as a second gun, for the same reason.

Part of me wonders about paranoia, but when they are really out to get you, it ain't being paranoid.
Click to expand...

Though possible, most self defense situations rarely involve multiple persons or bullets. Although I respect your views and see why you have them, I think most people have to balance conceal ability with comfort, accuracy, and function. I don't want to be in a "fire-fight" situation with a CC handgun. I think in the first situation the retired LEOs decision to "engage" more than one suspect was a huge mistake. Now, the story didn't tell the exact circumstances (ie. was his life or the lives of others "directly" at threat of imminent death). But given a normal robbery situation it was doubtfully the case. It sounds like he inserted himself into a situation that he was not prepared for and was unnecessary. He jumped back into "police" mode instead of existing in "self defense" mode.

Anyway, if you can carry an arsenal, concealed and comfortably, I guess go for it. Personally, if my Shield with eight 9mm bullets (and maybe an extra mag in my pocket) can't handle the situation then it's time for flight instead of fight.
 
"Anyway, if you can carry an arsenal, concealed and comfortably, I guess go for it. Personally, if my Shield with eight 9mm bullets (and maybe an extra mag in my pocket) can't handle the situation then it's time for flight instead of fight."

Good advice.....
 
I agree with "flight instead of fight"

However, those of us that are older or not as mobile may not have to option to run away. Or run away quick enough. We may have to stand and fight.

It's not just about multiple assailants and their ability. It's about our ability or lack thereof.
 
sipowicz said:
I know the Shield is a better design but still....
Click to expand...

I would respectfully challenge that conclusion. In a lifetime of working on/designing/building metal parts I have concluded that miniaturizing many parts increases the stress those parts have to endure. A big clunky metal part designed in the days of sliderule engineering (i.e. designing in extra material "just to be sure") holds up better than parts designed to a minimum size, probably on a computer.

I do not mean any disrespect to the Shield, or to you Sipowicz, but my experience tells me larger parts and fewer parts makes for a more robust design. And I want something I may have to use to defend my life to be "robust."
 
federali said:
A retired NYC LEO paid with his life when caught in such a situation on Lower Broadway in Manhattan, at a Radio Shack. He was armed with a Model 36, no reload, engaged what he thought were two adversaries which turned out to be four adversaries, fired five times and missed and was then gunned down.
Click to expand...

I agree with Lycan. This is not the fault of the M36 but rather operator error in judgement probably and apparently lack of range time.
 
I like my Shield but for me it's a niche gun. It's the gun I carry when I'm sitting around the house in sweats or I'm in a situation where I can't carry something bigger (capacity not caliber).

outside of the home the gun I carry the most is a 6906. To me it's the best compromise between concealability and capacity.

I know a lot of people prefer a bigger caliber gun but my epiphany came when I realized that all the training I've ever received was based on the idea that if I fire at all regardless of caliber I'm going to be firing more than once. I'd rather have more rounds to do that with than less
 
federali said:
Most discussions regarding CCW guns revolve around gun size and concealability. I have a different criteria: If you walked into a convenience store and were suddenly in the midst of a shooting incident against three armed adversaries, does the gun you're carrying have sufficient offensive capability and accuracy to engage one or more armed adversaries at distances that could stretch the length of the store and could you hit all three adversaries without a reload?

A retired NYC LEO paid with his life when caught in such a situation on Lower Broadway in Manhattan, at a Radio Shack. He was armed with a Model 36, no reload, engaged what he thought were two adversaries which turned out to be four adversaries, fired five times and missed and was then gunned down.

My minimum carry gun is a Kahr P9 but I most often carry a Glock 19 or a Browning HP, both of which have the offensive capability I feel I'll need should I have no choice but to shoot my way out of a bad situation.
Click to expand...

Since we don't know what the situation will be if we have to fire in self defense, how can we possibly say how many rounds will be needed? You carry a 13+1 High Power, which MAY have rendered a different outcome for that NYC officer(r), but what if the situation were a mall parking lot "knock-out mob" (as recently happened in Memphis)?....you might STILL be short on rounds! The point is, we don't know. :o

What we DO know is that if you carry on a regular basis that High Power (or FS 1911, etc) is likelly to feel like a boat anchor on your hip...and your back will eventually certify this. :cool:

Given all that, for the 4 round difference between the Shield and HP vs the weight and concealability difference....I'll take the Shield. Besides, if 9 rounds and a reload won't get me to safety, I'm most likelly screwed anyway.
 
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I tried the Ruger LCP and all the clones and found that sooner or later they all malfunction. Correcting that malfunction on such a small gun is difficult for me (big hands). I've stayed w/the J frame platform for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that I know the .38 FBI load works from past experience & the revolver is much less likely to have a problem. I'm no longer an LEO so I don't carry much beyond the gun and a single speed strip. If that's not enough I'm probably somewhere where I shouldn't be.
 
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This subject never seems to go away for long, and will never likely be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. No matter how many rounds you carry, someone can always come up with a scenario where you would need more rounds.

The recent viral YouTube video of a mob of thugs attacking some Kroger store employees (and someone yelling "we got a white one") immediately made me think of how I would react if similarly attacked. A two shot Derringer might stop the attack, if you shot one of the thugs and the rest went running. Or a 15 round semi-auto might not be enough if all of the thugs come at you after you draw your gun (you will not likely hit and disable with every round fired).

Personally I know that I will not consistently carry a large heavy gun, despite the comfort level it provides in terms of stopping power and round capacity. I only carry what I can do with relative physical comfort and convenience, especially recognizing that it is most likely that I will never actually need my gun even if I carry 24/7 for the rest of my life.

So right now I find that my most frequently carried gun is my 642, with no speed loaders or ammo strips, limiting me to a total of 5 rounds of 38+p ammo, or my new Ruger LC9s with 8 rounds of 9mm. I would be better prepared with my trusty Model 19 with 6 rounds of 357mag plus a 45acp semi auto with another 9 or 10 rounds, but I know I will not actually carry that way.
 
Thanks for all the replies...I still carry an auto now and then, but my P2000 is compact enough to fit in an IWB under a t-shirt so I guess I'll stick with that....for now. And maybe that is why the Shield feels so skinny in my hand...still, it shoot very well for a small auto..and the trigger on the one I shot was better than on my M&P. Hmmm...maybe next year....:)
 
Old cop said:
If that's not enough I'm probably somewhere where I shouldn't be.
Click to expand...

I never look at it that way. Although i get where youre coming from, that kind of logic isn't good. Unless you have alzheimers and just wonder about in bad areas walking into shady bars you are exactly where you should be. I know I am. I'm at work, this is where I should be, or at a store or at a doctors office. If there is trouble it came to me not the other way around. And i should be as prepared as possible for it.

Getting back to the tiny guns. I'm not a huge fan of them either. To me it depends on the overall size and thickness of the gun. Some, like the Kahr CM/PM9 or the bodyguard are just too small to effectively grab and shoot. To me it's like trying to pull a toothpick out of a golf bag. Even the Kahr P9 is a bit too small. I would at least need to add some thickness to the grip. The controls don't bother me much. As a lefty I slingshot the slide and the thickness of the specific grip would dictate how easy it is to release the mag. Like someone else said, I use a small gun, m36, when I absolutely have no choice but even that I'm thinking of replacing with some sort of a auto. Maybe a Kahr P45 or a cw45
 
Lycan Has it

Yes, The officer in question, Sgt. Tim Sullivan as I recall, committed a gross tactical error. He hadn't anticipated or noticed back-up gunmen until he committed himself to action.

If robbers are content to take the money and run, then let them. The problem arises when they decide not to leave witnesses. For the victim, this is a coin-toss that decides whether you live or die.

The Model 36 or 37 is a great gun and I own and use a Model 37 on occasion. But, most of our local convenience stores, even the local wine shop, are robberies waiting to happen as the shopkeepers have not followed free advice available from the police and have done nothing to discourage an armed robbery.
 
I had an epiphany myself awhile back. I mentioned on another thread recently about a time when I was shooting at a full-sized pig silhouette with a Chief's Special using 125 gr +P ammo and failed to knock it down. A couple of people had fun with that, but it illustrated to me that a 38 snubby just doesn't hit very hard. Have any of you ever had to put out a fire with a small inadequate fire extinguisher? I have, a couple of times. Pretty frustrating when the darn thing runs out just when you get started and the fire is still going and growing. Not a good feeling and a good analogy for a typical self defense scenario. So I chose a Glock 23. I was like a lot of people with an anti-Glock bias for a long time. Until I tried one and realized I was being silly. Obviously not the only choice, but a good one I think. You don't have to worry about miniture controls on that one.
 
For me there is three levels of carry. If I am just running around with my wife shopping/eating/doctoring I take a old model 40 smith. On longer jaunts we have a old model 36 with a 3" pencil barrel. I own 8 various .38`s and .357`s. At some point it finaly sunk into me that the little model 36 was light to pack, shot the same ammo as I mostly use EVEN IN my .357`s, had the same barrel length as my model 63-3, even a half inch longer than my python snub and weighs about half what they do. Third level is my .44`s and .45`s that usually stay home nowdays. When they get carried its in the boonies. Guess I will have to take my chances on a swarm of a half dozen thrill seekers wanting to count coup on me.



 
undergunned

Hi all
I have often read on the forums folks say (I don't feel undergunned) when I carry X Y or Z.
Seems like feeling undergunned and actually being undergunned are two different situations.
I guess one will not know until it's too late!
I may or may not be myself when in public but I'm pretty confident at home!
Just saying
Regards
Mike
 
If we get nuked anything less than another nuke in your pocket is being undergunned. Guess we just gamble with the odd`s and stats. To me at my age, all of this is just interesting to think about. I have been in some touch and go situations many years ago but truth is I pretty much put myself in them. Off the top of my head I cant really recall ever having been attacked without cause since high school.
 
I went to LGS to visit with a LC9S. Sure is handy, light trigger, safety as probably most striker fired pistols..Giving it some thought..My Shield is just a little big for a pocket pistol ..However it is reliable....The real question is if I bought a smaller pistol like the LC9s would I carry it any more than I do my shield or PPKs...I honestly don't know over many, many years I have tried almost every thing including that small diamondback.... I want something that is concealable and functions..period..I would rather have my BHP with me if I really need it..I'm practical enough to realize it is a little to big for summer wear.I'm 5'9'' and 150 lbs soaking wet. Overshirts I guess is the only practical answer, however when I see somebody with one on I think...he is carrying... I love P7's but they are pardon the....butt heavy for inside the waist wear..For me anyway.....You would think at my age I would have figured it out by now.....NOT
 
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