my response to "no guns allowed" sign

[elm_creek_smith]

I'm sorry. This isn't really a flame. But what sort of history did you know or what sort of intel did you have that made you feel the need for protection in a hardware store?

Really? "Good Lord, man! They have hatchets and axes in that place! All it takes is for ONE CUSTOMER TO SNAP, and you'll have a MASS AXING!"

And you made your Constitutional protest to the checkout clerk?

Should he have asked for the manager?

I don't spend my money places that have "no guns" signs. I was on my way to buy my wife a piece of jewelry one day when I saw the dreaded "no guns" sign on the door. I stood in front of the store for a few minutes with my gun on my hip (open carry), and the manager opened the door to ask if he could help me. I told him that I was interested in a "Journey" necklace around 2 karats total weight, but, since his company had put the sign on the door, I was going to buy it somewhere else. I told him to have a nice day and took my two grand sale elsewhere. "He went to Jared, but he bought the jewelry somewhere else!"

ECS

 

[KLYDE]

Store owner probably migrated North from Massachusetts!!!

 

[Devildogcpl]

Agree

Well done Sir!

 

[Jaysq]

I do not understand the logic of getting a CCW Permit and then breaking the law by carrying it onto posted private property because they won't know you are carrying anyway. Using that logic, why would you even brother to be partially legal by getting a CCW?

We get enough bad press when we are 100% legal, why give them more ammunition to use against us.

 

[vito]

I think it is easy to understand why a CCW license holder might carry even when a GFZ sign is posted: the entire purpose of carrying a firearm is to provide for self defense and defense of one's family. The need for a gun does not end merely because some anti-gun property owner decided to post a sign. I think that most gun owners want to obey the law, except when that law puts them into excessive danger.

Just as some good citizens knowingly broke the law by carrying even before concealed carry became legal, some will carry where it is technically prohibited. Leaving a firearm in an easy-to-break-into vehicle is not a great solution. Leaving a firearm at home because for one small part of a day you will not be able to avoid entering a business that is posted is not an acceptable compromise.

I would guess that most legal gun concealed carriers honor the property owner's decision where possible by not patronizing that business. But where it creates a dangerous or overly inconvenient situation you can just make sure that concealed means really concealed. I'll bet that if a GFZ business owner is being threatened with death by a criminal, and if a licensed gun carrier intervenes successfully, the business owner is not going to get too upset that his GFZ sign was ignored.

 

[TexasArmed]

I think it is easy to understand why a CCW license holder might carry even when a GFZ sign is posted: the entire purpose of carrying a firearm is to provide for self defense and defense of one's family. The need for a gun does not end merely because some anti-gun property owner decided to post a sign. I think that most gun owners want to obey the law, except when that law puts them into excessive danger.

Just as some good citizens knowingly broke the law by carrying even before concealed carry became legal, some will carry where it is technically prohibited. Leaving a firearm in an easy-to-break-into vehicle is not a great solution. Leaving a firearm at home because for one small part of a day you will not be able to avoid entering a business that is posted is not an acceptable compromise.

I would guess that most legal gun concealed carriers honor the property owner's decision where possible by not patronizing that business. But where it creates a dangerous or overly inconvenient situation you can just make sure that concealed means really concealed. I'll bet that if a GFZ business owner is being threatened with death by a criminal, and if a licensed gun carrier intervenes successfully, the business owner is not going to get too upset that his GFZ sign was ignored.

I agree that leaving your gun in a vehicle is not a good solution. I too avoid the post office, but if I do go there, I will not carry my revolver inside with me. On the occasions I do go into the post office, I never go in armed. All federal property is off limits. I can however carry into a hospital or a bank in Texas, and I do, but not if there is a 30.06 sign and not if it is federal property.

As for someone breaking into a vehicle at a post office, I figure that is the government's negligence in making it a gun free zone, as long as I lock my vehicle and the government leaves me no option.

Now if they made all handguns somehow illegal then I would decide maybe to ignore the law, since I consider such a law to be unconstitutional, certainly not enforceable by any executive order, regardless of who issues it.

I figure that business owners are not stupid in Texas. If they put up a gun buster sign they know the sign is not enforceable and if they wanted to keep out a concealed license holder they would put up the legally required signs. Those have to be in English and Spanish on every entrance. I see pawn and gun shops that have signs that your firearm must be unloaded before entering. When I told the owner of one of them that I never had bought anything there because of his sign, he said that it did not apply to permit holders. I even saw a sign once that said "pursuant to 30.06" and so on. But the letters were not 1 and 1/2 inches high and it was not in both English and Spanish, so if I had needed to go inside and pay for gas I would not have disarmed. But I also would not have stopped for gas there in the future.

 

[Protected One]

I do not understand the logic of getting a CCW Permit and then breaking the law by carrying it onto posted private property because they won't know you are carrying anyway. Using that logic, why would you even brother to be partially legal by getting a CCW?

We get enough bad press when we are 100% legal, why give them more ammunition to use against us.

You seem to miss the fact that in many states, just posting a sign does NOT make it illegal to carry in that establishment!

To some extent, those of us who choose to carry make things more difficult by trying to persuade those businesses to embrace our thinking - they won't.
Allow them their illusion of safety, and carry concealed (where legal), without any "objections to mg't". Or, if you choose...don't patronize those establishments that post such signs...again, without "objections to mg't".
After all, we carry to protect ourselves - not to try and pursuade others to do the same. At least...that's why I carry.

 

[Salty RI]

He did not laugh....but seemed baffled.

The young people today have no sence of humor, one time several years back my youngest son wanted a pair of sun glasses, they were called frog skins, we went into a store that has all kinds of sun glasses, I went to the counter and was looking around and a young guy asked if I needed any help, I said yes, I'm looking for some sun glasses for my son, I think they are call Fore Skins, my wife kicked me in the shins, he said he had never heard of them, but we do have some frog skins, I said OK I will take a pair of them, the dumb kid didn't even smile.

 

[SgtLumpy]

Some seem to delight in chastising states or other governments who do not "do the right thing" by passing lenient CCW laws - Then delight in pubicly proclaiming how they'll violate the law anyway.

Some (most here?) are adamant about how governments or other individuals "Don't dare infringe upon my rights". Yet, again, are adamant about how they'll disregard the rights of those (business owners) who disagree with our point of view.

Stop public posturing. Carry where you need to - discreetly. If you plan on violating a law or someone else's rights, don't brag about it. It doesn't help your cause. If you don't want people to control you or your guns, don't brag about how you'll just go ahead and do it anyway.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[jaykwish]

The theater my girlfriend and I visit every once in a while has a no firearms sign so before we went to see a movie one day we called and asked if my girlfriend could have her weapon in the theater( she is a police officer). Guess what they said? They said no! Are you freaking kidding me?! We still went and my furious self proceeded to explain to the manager how stupid those signs are and his response was " well didn't you see the theater shootings on tv? I then told him that guy would not have listened to your stupid sign even if it was ten feet tall. I said you won't even let an Leo in your theater and you have lost my business permanently. They wouldn't let a police officer into the theater with a pistol. Some of these people need to be high fived in the face with a chair.


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[ladder13]

Maybe 1 of the 12 killed in Aurora wished he/she had "smuggled" their gun into the theater, it was a gun free zone afterall. No criminals ever enter gun free zones.

 

[Rastoff]

As for someone breaking into a vehicle at a post office, I figure that is the government's negligence in making it a gun free zone, as long as I lock my vehicle and the government leaves me no option.

The logic here doesn't track. You are aware that you can't have your gun anywhere on Post Office property, including the parking lot, right? So, if your car is broken into while in the Post Office parking lot, and your gun is stolen, the government cannot be held responsible because you're breaking the law. If you're doing the right thing and parking off Post Office property then they can't be held responsible because your car was on property not under their control.

 

[Ransom]

The logic here doesn't track. You are aware that you can't have your gun anywhere on Post Office property, including the parking lot, right? So, if your car is broken into while in the Post Office parking lot, and your gun is stolen, the government cannot be held responsible because you're breaking the law. If you're doing the right thing and parking off Post Office property then they can't be held responsible because your car was on property not under their control.

Interesting. I had not noticed (or forgotten) that little tidbit since Missouri has extensive protections for possession of a firearm in a vehicle. But change is in the air! I looked it up on Handgunlaw.us and found this note:

The U.S. District Court for the District of Colorado ruled July 10, 2013 that banning firearms in vehicles on Post Office Property was Unconstitutional. Bonidy vs USPS.

 

[Protected One]

The theater my girlfriend and I visit every once in a while has a no firearms sign so before we went to see a movie one day we called and asked if my girlfriend could have her weapon in the theater( she is a police officer). Guess what they said? They said no! Are you freaking kidding me?! We still went and my furious self proceeded to explain to the manager how stupid those signs are and his response was " well didn't you see the theater shootings on tv? I then told him that guy would not have listened to your stupid sign even if it was ten feet tall. I said you won't even let an Leo in your theater and you have lost my business permanently. They wouldn't let a police officer into the theater with a pistol. Some of these people need to be high fived in the face with a chair.


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I don't know where you live but it's different here. I have a friend who is a county sheriff. He and his wife, along with me and my wife often go to "screenings" for upcoming movies. Most of the time they are "wanding" and searching people as we enter the theatre. When we get to the front of the line he just says "gun in this pocket...knife in this one". Sometimes they ask for his I.D. but they've never turned us away yet.

 

[Rastoff]

Good catch Ransom. I wonder how that will play out in other states.

First let me state that I hate the law. All of them are written in such a way that it's almost impossible to tell what's what. Having said that, here is what the current code says about Weapons and Explosives:

39 CFR 232.1
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. (I would like to note that at my local post office this is posted in tiny lettering on an 8 1/2"x11" sheet of paper on a bulletin board far at the back in an unlit corner. Not very conspicuous to me.)

This is the very first statement in the code. As you can see, it applies to all real property. Later in the code it says this:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

This is the part that disallows guns.

It is important to note that while the Bonidy vs USPS case ruled it unconstitutional, on the same page on Handgunlaw.us there is another case, USA v Clarance Paul Dorosan, that upheld the no carry on postal property.

So, the issue isn't solved yet. The one case may only apply to Colorado. Clearly more research needs to be done on this subject.

 

[TexasArmed]

The logic here doesn't track. You are aware that you can't have your gun anywhere on Post Office property, including the parking lot, right? So, if your car is broken into while in the Post Office parking lot, and your gun is stolen, the government cannot be held responsible because you're breaking the law. If you're doing the right thing and parking off Post Office property then they can't be held responsible because your car was on property not under their control.

Sorry, the post office in my town does not own the street, and I supposed they are to cheap to build one with a parking lot like other cities do. But then I have seen police not on official business enter it armed and when I mentioned this issue to one of them he asked me who did the post office call if they have a problem. So no I am not worried about that issue because my post office has no parking lot. In fact they need a new post office and tried to get loose from the one they got, till local folks objecting to it being closed down. You apparently live in a place where the post office actually has parking lots. Another thing about Texas rural areas, if there was a disease going around we have to go there anyways, because the post office will not deliver to any apartment complex. There are whole towns where there is only Post Office Boxes.

 

[ric_in_or]

A couple of thoughts:
1. Post Offices - your representatives need to hear from you. Rand Paul has introduced legislation which would allow firearms at the post office.
Rand Paul Wants You to Come to the Post Office Packing - Businessweek

2. Sometimes those apps which identify gun-free zones are humorous. An indoor gun range I shoot at has a sign which says all guns must be unloaded. No force of law, other than trespass. It shows on the gun free app.

3. A local hardware store in my area recently posted no guns allowed. On the local gun forum, there was a bit of discussion. Mostly though, people were encouraged to talk to the owner. Several took their business elsewhere; and told the owner they did so. The sign is no longer there.

4. Do not come to the attention of police. With a million laws on the books you are undoubtedly a criminal. Federal, agencies, state, regional, city, county ... being in possession of a firearm while committing a crime, ups the ante quite a bit.

 

[Rastoff]

Sorry, the post office in my town does not own the street, and I supposed they are to cheap to build one with a parking lot like other cities do.

Wow, I've never seen a post office without a parking lot before.

 

[TexasArmed]

Maybe that's why it was on the closure list, because its an old building costing them too much to maintain it. But unless they build a new one people are going to complain to have to drive 30 miles or so to another one. I cannot understand how the post office can refuse to deliver mail at apartment complexes, too. In the event of a national epidemic veterans are going to the post office for their meds. Awhile back the VA experimented with using alternative delivery service.

I have never seen an old post office like this one either. It actually has a 3 letter combination on the PO Boxes to open them. I expect it will be up for closure again at some point.

I never lived anywhere else before Texas that relies so heavily on Post Office Boxes. I told them one day that if I got sick I still have to come there to pick up my medicine.

 

[ladder13]

Didn't the PO ban guns on postal property because their employees went bonkers?

 

[Rastoff]

I don't know if it was illegal before that first employee when nuts with his AK-47. I'm certain that those incidents didn't help things.

 

[snowman]

Wow, I've never seen a post office without a parking lot before.

Sir,

Few post offices in this area, large or small, have parking lots. I live in a village of 1000 people or so and we must park on the street; same story in a nearby county seat with a population of 40,000 or so.

Regards,
Andy

 

[jaykwish]

Didn't the PO ban guns on postal property because their employees went bonkers?

You mean went postal haha


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[shep854]

Here in Alabama, all I've seen on the post office door is a sign that says violence to postal employees is a Federal offense; no 'NO GUNS' sign.
----
On a slight tangent; Alabama has had CCW for many years, and open carry was recently codified into law. AFTER this, I've seen NO GUNS signs start popping up. I can only conclude it is a reaction to OC'ers making other customers nervous.

 

[Rastoff]

Sir,

Few post offices in this area, large or small, have parking lots. I live in a village of 1000 people or so and we must park on the street; same story in a nearby county seat with a population of 40,000 or so.

Regards,
Andy

I believe you. I've just never seen one.

 

[gboling]

Do those of you who have admitted to violations of the law, however minor, realize that this is a public forum and that any admissions made here could be used against you?

 

[PR24]

If the pistol is concealed then that is a personal decision. It is a misdemeanor to ignore a sign like that here in AZ.

As far as open carry; I wish folks would use their heads! Yea it's legal here too, but it freaks people out & the consequence is more damn signs FROM KNEE JERK business owners.....not to mention the concerned citizens calling the cops on someone who isn't breaking any laws, other than offending a liberal. Seriously though, we LEO's get sick of those calls just to tell the caller they are wasting everyone's time. However, if guns are hidden then everyone is happy & you are not a target. Ignorance is bliss for the sheeple.

 

[NavalOps]

Really, we have to think in advance of leaving the house whether we MIGHT wind up somewhere that having a gun to protect ours or our family's life would be prudent?????? I don't know about others but I'm not clairvoyant. I try to avoid trouble and bad areas whenever possible but evil exists all around us. Myself, and most CCP holders I know, value the life of ourselves and our family. That is why we carry. I'm not trying to make a statement by carrying or be a tough guy. I also don't want to have to shoot someone in self defense but if necessary I will.

I holster up when I leave the house and try to avoid locations where I have to unholster but do so if the law requires (banks, post office, court house etc).

As many others have said, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

BTW, never been to NY, not sure I'll ever need to go.

I'm not familiar with CCP laws in other states, but here in Florida it is not illegal to carry a concealed firearm into a bank, unless there is a sign specifically stating that firearms are not allowed. However, since I do work in a bank, they don't let me bring it with me while on the clock . I do get a kick out of watching the armored car workers come in; I get to see all the pistols that they carry. I've never seen them carry an M&P though, it's usually a Glock…I feel bad for them.

 

[TexasArmed]

Do those of you who have admitted to violations of the law, however minor, realize that this is a public forum and that any admissions made here could be used against you?

My goodness, I hope you did not assume from Rastoff's response to my post that I violated any law, I did not. He was not aware that at my post office, there is not a post office parking lots. Guess we never got our fair share of federal dollars.

But a private business could never get away with forcing you
to shop at their business without a parking lot, forcing you to disarm before going there, and refusing to deliver a service like mail delivery to apartment complexes.

The post office is still a gun free zone inside the post office without any signs being posted. So I always go to the exta trouble of disarming and locking my vehicle when leaving my
gun inside the vehicle. Of course if the post office had a parking it would be illegal to park in it with a gun inside the vehicle. No, I comply with all the current laws, but I would not comply
with a law that suddenly made my revolvers illegal or directed me to register them. When it gets that bad its time to draw the line and just say no.

 

[gboling]

I assumed nothing and made no reference to any specific post. I made a statement for all to consider.