Mystery Model

[Simmer down]

I sent a set of j-frame grips for this gun and the owner said they don't fit. He assumed it is a j-frame but my best guess is a early I-frame Chiefs Special. Its a 38 special. Under the yoke is stamped 94113.

I deleted the ser# he texted so I've asked for a re-do. I think it was in the 20,000 range.

Any educated guesses on the frame?

 

[murphydog]

A fairly early "Baby" Chiefs Special, about 1/8" shorter in the grip frame length (I frame dimensions) than the standard J frame.

 

[Green Frog]

Yep, looks like we're dealing with a "Baby Chief" here! Not to worry, though... the same grips that fit an I-frame will fit it well. Is he looking for originals or some kind of aftermarket? I have also had good luck using grips intended for J-frames but which cover the grip frame entirely. The half round at the top and the frame pin at the bottom locate the grips on the frame nicely, and if you want, you can even glass bed the inletting in the grips to fill in the empty space at the bottom.

Froggie

PS Murphydog beat me to the punch, but I disagree with the "early" part. It's late enough to have flat latch and serrated ramp front sight, two of the later features. "Just sayin' "

 

[Simmer down]

A fairly early "Baby" Chiefs Special, about 1/8" shorter in the grip frame length (I frame dimensions) than the standard J frame.

I'm so impressed with myself when I guess right.

The ser# is 26,4xx. Do you have a birthday book?

I think the first Chiefs came out in '50.

 

[Goony]

The ser# is 26,4xx. Do you have a birthday book?

Most likely shipped during the first half of 1953.

 

[mbliss57]

I agree with probable ship date. I have 359xx shipped in July, 29 1953.
That looks to be in vey nice shape from what I can see of the picture.

 

[Simmer down]

Thanks for the input. I think the original need for grips was to take the sting out. I sent a set of the standard issue used on the new j frames. They are way too ugly for me.

 

[Hondo44]

I sent a set of j-frame grips for this gun and the owner said they don't fit. He assumed it is a j-frame but my best guess is a early I-frame Chiefs Special. Its a 38 special. Under the yoke is stamped 94113.

I deleted the ser# he texted so I've asked for a re-do. I think it was in the 20,000 range.

Any educated guesses on the frame?

It is a J frame but that refers to the frame cyl window length. This gun is nicknamed "Baby J" by collectors and the distinction identifies it as having an I frame length grip and I frame sized trigger guard. These early Js were not made with the 'real' J size grip and trigger guard until the Model of 1953 at which time they also became 4 screw guns.

 

[hotrod150]

.... I disagree with the "early" part. It's late enough to have flat latch and serrated ramp front sight, two of the later features. "Just sayin' "

If the flat latch is a later feature, what thumb-piece did the early baby chiefs have?
Simmerdown, I have a set of imitation stag i-frame grips for sale in the accessories marketplace forum-- please pass the word along to your baby chief owner if you would jut in case he wants something i-frame specific & a little unusual to boot.

 

[Goony]

If the flat latch is a later feature, what thumb-piece did the early baby chiefs have?

The very, very first Chiefs Specials sported a standard style thumbpiece, but before the serial numbers had gotten into three digits (or very far into them), the flat latch was adopted. By the mid-1950's, a widened and angled (not quite so flat anymore) style became the norm.

Just for future reference, the ramp sight (initially smooth, no serrations) also made its appearance fairly early on, somewhere between serial numbers 2000 and 3000, if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[Hondo44]

If the flat latch is a later feature, what thumb-piece did the early baby chiefs have?

The Baby Js:
1950 Introduction of the J frame Chiefs Special 5 screw with half moon front sight, I frame size grip and trigger guard, and pre Magna stocks.

Earliest style Chief Thumbpiece (same as 1966 and later) and round front sight, ar15ed's #90 :

The OP's gun is in the following category with the sight change being the more distinctive feature:
C. 1952 Introduce: ribbed barrel with smooth ramp front sight, then the serrated ramp sight, and the square butt option, both rd and sq butt with Magna stocks..

 

[Green Frog]

Murphydog, I guess since there was only about a 3-4 year run of the Baby Chiefs, the terms "early" and "late" become a bit nebulous. I was looking primarily at the ramp front sight (with serrations) but also thinking of the old style thumb latch from when they were first introduced. Since it looks like this one came out in late '52 or early '53, and the Babies ended sometime in '53 if I'm interpreting what I read correctly, it is indeed a late one, for whatever that is worth! I think we can all agree that by definition, all Baby Chiefs are early Chief Specials, though.

Regards,
Froggie

 

[murphydog]

Yup, the reason I wrote "fairly early" was the lack of the rounded front sight but with the shorter grip frame. Still a baby even if is 60 years old .

 

[Hondo44]

The very, very first Chiefs Specials sported a standard style thumbpiece, but before the serial numbers had gotten into three digits (or very far into them), the flat latch was adopted. By the mid-1950's, a widened and angled (not quite so flat anymore) style became the norm.

Just for future reference, the ramp sight (initially smooth, no serrations) also made its appearance fairly early on, somewhere between serial numbers 2000 and 3000, if my memory serves me correctly.

Hi Goony,
I'm not sure either when the smooth ramp first appeared but there weren't many smooth ramp sights produced. Top gun below is # 7755 with smooth ramp sight. OP's gun may be at the upper limit of the 1st style flat latch.

 

[hotrod150]

Sweet! I sure like the looks of a half-moon front sight on a snubby! (note to self: gotta get me one of them someday...)

 

[Goony]

Murphydog, I guess since there was only about a 3-4 year run of the Baby Chiefs, the terms "early" and "late" become a bit nebulous. I was looking primarily at the ramp front sight (with serrations) but also thinking of the old style thumb latch from when they were first introduced. Since it looks like this one came out in late '52 or early '53, and the Babies ended sometime in '53 if I'm interpreting what I read correctly, it is indeed a late one, for whatever that is worth!

Froggie, I think you've accurately summed up the situation. In fact, the reported serial number is quite high for the gun to still be a "Baby" and I don't think I've ever heard of any higher. If someone has a "Baby" Chief with an even higher number, we (or at least I) would certainly like to see it.

As to the latches, most likely, in typical S&W fashion, there wasn't a definitive serial number or date at which the existing style abruptly disappeared and the new type supplanted it, but rather a serial number range and period of time in which an admixture of both could be found, lasting until the the existing supply of the superceded part was exhausted. Likewise with barrels. The half moon front sight continued to show up well after the ramp sight was adopted, and reportedly even made sporadic appearances alongside guns sporting the final serrated version of the ramp.

I'm posting a picture of another "Baby" Chief, in the 16000 serial number range (therefore circa 1952), this one having the serrated ramp.

Edit: Forgot to mention that, although it's not shown, this one has the earler style flat latch. One thing that complicates pinning down precisely when that flat latch configuration was changed is that it's a removeable part that could've been replaced on any particular gun. However, it'd seem that they were coming into use as early as 1953 based on the examples that Hondo44 and Engine49guy have shown. I hadn't seen any such "Baby" Chiefs up to now, or at least, hadn't been paying attention to that detail. I'd like to know what serial number range those two are in.

 

[Engine49guy]

L to R post War .38 Terrier (notice gap between cylinder and frame), "Baby" Chiefs Special 1st style flat latch & half moon FS, "Baby" Chiefs special with Serrated ramp and 2nd style flat latch

comparison of smooth and serrated "Baby" Chief ramps

 

[ar15ed]

i am pretty well convinced that the serial number 90 was the last gun with the sculpted latch (and the small service grips). i've been in contact with the owners, or folks who have seen 91-99 and they all have the early oval flat latch and magnas. every other one higher than that (that i have observed) have had the flat latch and magnas. i know it is un-s&w-like to make such an abrupt change! i think the reason is that the chiefs came out right at the end of the availability of the sculpted latch, and the service grips, in very late 1950. the 32he-s and terriers exhibit a progression of transitional features, especially the 32s. i also have a very early 32 snubby, which has all the earliest prewar features, and that barrel length was introduced in 1949, so i am thinking that the prewar stuff was running out between early 1949 and late 1950. the only difference is that the 32s and terriers were being produced during this time-frame, and the chief was just popping up right at the END of this period, as the early stuff was running out. i have seen overlap with the sculpted latch/service grips, sculpted latch/magna grips, oval flat latch/magna grips in both the terriers and 32s ( i actually have representatives of each configuration in both lines), but the best i can tell, number 90 was the end of the line for the sculpted latch AND the service grips in the chief line, crisp and clean.

i further will conject that this time in production (maybe november 1950?) was possibly the end of the sculpted latch and service grips across all three lines. i know shipping dates can muddy the waters a little, but as far as screwing guns together on the line, i bet it was the beginning of flat-latch/magna time!

here is the earliest features on the 32 (square-field/fine checkering, undercut/earliest latch, and even 2 line/left-side barrel stamping):

compared with the serial number 90 chief, with the last "pre-flat" latch and rounded corner/coarse checker pattern:

 

[ar15ed]

the "transition" of features is pretty well documented, and at least occasionally observed on the 32 and terrier.

here is a "last pre-flat" sculpted latch matched up with the small service grips (rounded field/coarse checker) on a terrier:

and even "last pre-flat latch" paired up with magnas (on a 32):

but i have just never seen any transition of features on the chiefs. i think all the early ones had the "last pre flat" sculpted latch with the rounded corner/coarse checker grips up until number 90, then switched to the oval flat latch and the short magnas at number 91.

this is just my conjecture! from a few years of diligent research, and rabid interest! if anyone has a concrete example of any transitional "grey area" on the chiefs, i would definitely appreciate info!

man, i love these things, and honestly find the early post-war transition of features to be extremely interesting.

 

[Hondo44]

Edit: Forgot to mention that, although it's not shown, this one has the earler style flat latch. One thing that complicates pinning down precisely when that flat latch configuration was changed is that it's a removeable part that could've been replaced on any particular gun. However, it'd seem that they were coming into use as early as 1953 based on the examples that Hondo44 and Engine49guy have shown. I hadn't seen any such "Baby" Chiefs up to now, or at least, hadn't been paying attention to that detail. I'd like to know what serial number range those two are in.

Goony,
The first thumbpiece on the Baby Js has reportedly only been observed on the 1st 100 plus or minus guns. It was followed by the first style flat latch and therefore would have had to be very soon after introduction in 1950 of the Baby J Chiefs Spl.
My Baby J with 1st style flat latch is number 33903.

 

[ar15ed]

my new project (well my newEST project! my original NEW project was to find a baby airweight, but it is proving bodaciously difficult, even though i still haven't admitted defeat!). anyway... new project.. i am trying to figure out the smooth sight deal. the round-sight barrels definitely phased out over a period of time/serial number range. my brain tells me that there were a very few (maybe a few hundred, realistically) smoothies, and they were probably used fairly continuously until being replaced with the serrated sight barrels. there was evidently some overlap (again shipping dates muddy the water a tad), between the smooth ramp/serrated ramp, and even round/smooth ramp transitions.

i would be interested in concrete serial number ranges of the smooth ramp guns, maybe establish upper and lower points. i know we never have any luck with that type of thread!

and, by the way! i saw that chief number 261 and 316(?) both went off recently on g-b. i hope a fellow forum member snagged them. i was tempted by both of them, but the airweight-baby search is doing a good job of keeping me out of trouble!

 

[JSR III]

I have 20768 that shipped 10-14-1952. It has a serrated ramp front sight, the slightly ramped round corner rectangular flat latch and magna stocks. FWIW

 

[ar15ed]

i recently started a thread trying to see if anything other than steel chiefs had the smooth sight. there wasn't much response, but there doesn't appear to be any airweights with the smooth sight barrel, so i am assuming the smooth-sighted chiefs were pretty much finished by the 1952 intro of the airweights. i bet the actual time-frame of production of the smooth sighted guns was very short.

 

[ar15ed]

thanks, jsriii! i bet that is roughly about the end-range of the smoothies, at least as far as the production-time frame is concerned. i know we have to take everything with a grain of salt as far as shipping date is concerned!

 

[Engine49guy]

QUOTE ..." I'd like to know what serial number range those two are in"....

.38 S&W Terrier, Half Penny FS, post war Service grips 1 7/8" Barrel, Blue,
Serial 58078 , shipped in December 1950

.38 "Baby" Chiefs Special, half penny FS, first style flat latch, Magna grips 1 7/8" Barrel, Blue,
Serial 1025 shipped in December 1951

.38 "Baby" Chiefs Special , serrated ramp FS 1 7/8" Barrel, Blue, 2nd style flat latch,
Serial 38217 shipped in February 1954


Found this unnumbered NOS half penny FS .38 special Baby Chief barrel at a gunshow so
I tend to believe they wanted to upgrade the CS image over the parts ran out theory,

Edited to add this smooth FS version (not mine) is serial 7913 to help narrow it a bit

 

[ar15ed]

i think you have touched on a very likely fact! at the time, the chief was a huge new idea, brand new modern frame, housing a full power cartridge. 5-shot, tiny package compared to its competitors. i am sure they wanted it to exhibit the most modern-appearing features they could come up with.

 

[Hondo44]

the "transition" of features is pretty well documented, and at least occasionally observed on the 32 and terrier.

here is a "last pre-flat" sculpted latch matched up with the small service grips (rounded field/coarse checker) on a terrier:

and even "last pre-flat latch" paired up with magnas (on a 32):

but i have just never seen any transition of features on the chiefs. i think all the early ones had the "last pre flat" sculpted latch with the rounded corner/coarse checker grips up until number 90, then switched to the oval flat latch and the short magnas at number 91.

this is just my conjecture! from a few years of diligent research, and rabid interest! if anyone has a concrete example of any transitional "grey area" on the chiefs, i would definitely appreciate info!

man, i love these things, and honestly find the early post-war transition of features to be extremely interesting.

The I frames; .22/32, .32 and .38 S&W thumblatches have a completely different evolution than the J frame Chief Spl.

The I frames used four different latches starting with left over pre war latches followed by three different standard type latches ending with the final style which was the same as the first 90 or so Baby Js had. Then c. late 1952 to c. early 1953 (production dates, not shipping dates) the I frames began using the flat latches (starting withe the 2nd style) which continued thru the new Model of 1953 until 1966.

Standard post war (non- flat latch) thumbpieces:
Pre war thumbpieces carried over on the earliest of the post war I, K & N frames; the double hourglass or double 'pinch' around screw hole thumbpiece with relief cuts under checkered pad shown here same as on pre war and very early post war K frames.

2nd style, and first ‘new’ post war thumbpiece, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cuts under checkered pad.

The 3rd style was a single hourglass with a single 'pinch' in front of the screw hole like a #2 and from the center of the screw to the rear it's like a #4.

4th style which was also the first style used on the first 90 or so Chief Special 'Baby J' frames and last style I frame latch immediately prior to the flat latches. The 4th style was re-introduced on I and J frames after '66 for several years in both blue and stainless until the modern style took over with the lower half shaved off. When the 'classics series' was produced an exact copy of the pre-war style was introduced on them but was an MIM cast part.

On the I frames these four styles were followed by the 2nd and 3rd style flat latch. The 1st style FL was only used on the Baby J frames and airweight K frames.

The flat style usage after the Model of 1953 up dates were the same for all I and J frames.

I & J frame flat latches:

Earliest style Chief latch, ar15ed's #90:

1st style flat latch on this Baby J frame.

2nd style flat latch began on the I frames and Baby Js just prior to the Models of 1953

3rd style on this Pre-36.

Difference between 2nd Flat Latch (on left) and 3rd Flat latch (on right), top view.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...07291-lowest-chief-special-serial-number.html

 

[Hondo44]

i recently started a thread trying to see if anything other than steel chiefs had the smooth sight. there wasn't much response, but there doesn't appear to be any airweights with the smooth sight barrel, so i am assuming the smooth-sighted chiefs were pretty much finished by the 1952 intro of the airweights. i bet the actual time-frame of production of the smooth sighted guns was very short.

I agree. Lee states in this thread that there are no Baby J Airweights. So since the smooth ramp sites were long gone before the end of the Baby Js there may not have been any Airweights with a smooth ramp sight:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ve-5-screw-airweight-chief.html#post136679484

 

[Goony]

Just to get entirely clear, then, some related points here - the "Baby" Chief pattern persisted up until sometime in 1954 and at least up into the 38,000 serial number range (that's much higher than I had thought). And these were all 5 screw guns? There obviously was serial number overlap between the small triggerguard 5 screw version and the subsequent large triggerguard 4 screw type, but what's the lowest serial number of the latter that anyone has or knows of (especially with the steel frame and round butt - my understanding being that all Airweights and square butts will not be found with the "Baby" triggerguard and 5th screw)?

 

[Hondo44]

Just to get entirely clear, then, some related points here - the "Baby" Chief pattern persisted up until sometime in 1954 and at least up into the 38,000 serial number range (that's much higher than I had thought). And these were all 5 screw guns? There obviously was serial number overlap between the small triggerguard 5 screw version and the subsequent large triggerguard 4 screw type, but what's the lowest serial number of the latter that anyone has or knows of (especially with the steel frame and round butt - my understanding being that all Airweights and square butts will not be found with the "Baby" triggerguard and 5th screw)?

Baby Js went to the high 40,000s and were all 5 screw guns no exceptions. The new Model of 1953 full size Js were all 4 screws, no exceptions and began with overlapped serial #s in the high 40,000 range. Sq butts began on the Baby Js but are very, very rare. See one here in post #10:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/222583-scarce-lil-baby-2.html
Airweights began in the Model of 1953 introduction, no Baby J Airweights.

Here's the simplified early chronology of the "Model .38 Chiefs Special" (collector nickname Baby J frame):

1950 Introduction of the J frame Chiefs Special 5 screw with half moon front sight, I frame size grip and trigger guard, pre Magna stocks. Standard latch for the 1st 90 followed by the 1st style flat latch.

1952 Introduce ribbed barrel with smooth ramp front sight, earliest #6362 & latest #7913; then the serrated ramp sight, and the square butt option on the ‘Baby J’ c. SN#21342 in 1952 with Magna Stocks on both rd and sq butts. Will still have 1st style flat latch up to at least the 26,000 range. Reported are steel Babys in the 33,000 range and the 36,600 range, but an Airweight with 1953 features (LARGE TG & LONG grips) in the 27,000 range. Last Babys thought to be in the late 40,000 range.

1953 Introduce the Model of 1953 Chiefs Special (the pre model 36) and the Airweight Model with J frame size grip, larger trigger guard, eliminate trigger guard screw (the 5th screw).