N-frame but what is it? What's it worth?

[DCWilson]

2152hq and Lee --

Thanks for the observations on dies and roll marking. I thought it might be like the old "Dragnet" closing image where the big fist with the hammer just whams the back of the die and punches a deep dent in the lower metal surface. Guess not, huh?

Actually, I kind of understand better now why it is that some roll markings (primarily logos and four-line address stamps, in my experience) can appear to fade in different zones of the impression.

 

[handejector]

2152hq-
Thanks for the excellent explanation.

G4F-
Yoke detents come and go. They were in the early 1917's. Not far into production, it was dropped, probably in an effort to speed up.
The 44-2nd I show above has been drilled for it probably because it was an early 1917 frame that was set aside or rejected, but never had it.

After WW I, S&W seemed to have trouble getting back into civilian production. The logos were not put on 1917's as a rule, and the wartime and early years after the war is when we see commercial guns with no logos. They dropped the grip medallions after WW I. The yoke detent was dropped after the war. By the 30's, it was back in the N frames, but I don't think it came back in the K frames. I don't have any. During and after WW II, it was dropped again.

 

[SDH]

Thanks 2152 (for the great info on roll marking), Lee and all others for adding to the information in this thread.
I thought I'd add some pix of my 2cd model, lettered to Sept.2, 1924, Shapleigh Hardware, St. Louis, Mo. with all matching numbers except grips (66???)
The first photo shows the hole and detent dimple in the crane and frame cut. I didn't know about this on large frames and might someday make a detent to fit. Also shows the Only eagle (with an S2 below) mark I can find on the gun.

The second photo shows the left side of the frame and the pins that are polished flat (below cylinder keyhole) and those that protrude on a factory finished frame. The S&W logo is not raised as with later marks, but is sharp and crisp in every way.

The right side of the grip frame is marked with an N near the bottom and tiny, almost indistinguishable 1, 5, 4, 8 in a wheel around the grip pin.

Next shows the serial number and the plugged swivel hole. Because the plug does not appear to be nickel plated, and the letter says it had a "butt swivel" I imagine this plug is a later replacement??

The last photo and the third present my question??
The sideplate appears differently than the rest of the nickel on the frame. I had imagine it was a replacement but last time I had it off I checked and it does have the same numbers as are on the yoke and in the yoke cut?? (Folks often say the yoke cut numbers don't matter but in this case they prove the sideplate original to the gun)
Any knowledge about why/how the sideplate comes to look so different?
Anyone can speculate that is was renickel apart from the frame, but??

Thanks much,
BTW; I understand why folks like TL's more but I always preferred the 2cd Model as sleeker than the lumpy 3rd!!

 

[SDH]

Just for grins, I removed the swivel plug. A touch of cold blue onthe end proved in not plated, but the groove all around tells me it is probably the cut-off original. Also scanned letter.

 

[rburg]

some excellent information in this thread

This happens from time to time.

If you want to play a fun game, take an odd gun to a gun show or to a gathering of gun-knowing friends. Ask them about it. You can ask them if its been refinished, if it came the way its currently configured, or worst of all, ask them the percentage of condition (then duck.)

If you're at a gun show and buy a new gun, look up a worthy and ask him/her the same questions. Its how we all learn. Yes, I feel sorry for the OP in this entire deal. He had no idea going in what was going to happen.

 

[Hondo44]

Much has been said so just a couple of comments:

1.) Not discounting the comments already made about the cylinder hold-open detent plunger, as a general trend and keeping in mind the main S&W collecting rule; "never say never", pre-war K and N frames usually have the device and post war frames usually do not. [Keeping in mind what Lee said about the model 1917s/military guns.] The only I frames with the device to my knowledge are the very 1st .32 Hand Ejector Model 1 or Model of 1896 and the 2nd model. Purchased pre war guns are known with the plunger and spring missing because they go flying when the cylinder/crane is removed unknowingly. Fortunately it's easy to find substitute parts. I like the device and will install the device in a current 586 44 conversion to '596' project and probably others.

2.) Regarding what we have witnessed on this thread besides a boatload of knowledge:
It has been my observation that when a novice is informed about a gun he is questioning by an experienced collector the amount of information, deductions and conclusions the collector supplies can sometimes be unbelievable to the novice. The novice simply has no reference for the amount of factual knowledge from the combined years of observation, study and investigation provided. The novice mistakenly comes away with the perception that all he received was a "know-it-all's" subjective opinion instead of the objective opinion laced with facts that he actually did receive. I believe that's the case with our OP thru no fault of his own. It's not an unusual phenomenon.

He also came to the forum "armed" with his gunsmith's opinion about a refinished gun. He was mistakenly thinking a, and in particular his, gunsmith was a credible source for the questions about his gun. He does not realize that no matter how excellent a gunsmith, he his still a gun repairman, wholly unqualified for the forensic investigation supplied by a body of experts in collecting and assessing originality of collectible firearms that he received on this forum. Especially if it wasn't what he expected or wanted to hear.

No one on this forum was attempting to humiliate the OP but neither did we understand the quagmire of the OP's perceptions that we were stepping into which resulted in the subsequent OP's 'pushback'.

 

[rburg]

Purchased pre war guns are known with the plunger and spring missing because they go flying when the cylinder/crane is removed unknowingly. Fortunately it's easy to find substitute parts. I like the device and will install the device in a current 586 44 conversion to '596' project and probably others.

Help me out on the "easy to find" part of all this! A while back I had a triple lock that was missing the plunger. Little did I know it still had its spring. They sometimes get stuck in the hole and you can't/don't see them. A helpful hint is to find a small cheap fishhook. Cheap is better because they bend (not tempered.) You push it in the hole and withdraw it. Presto! Out comes the spring hooked on the barb! I've never found a source for the plunger, so I've made my own. I used a numbered drill bit. Buy one or two at a good hardware. You can manufacture several per bit (the shank). Just cut the desired length with a dremel cutoff wheel and round the ends on a grinder (while holding it in a pin vise or vise grips.)

On the triple lock that I didn't know I still had the spring, I went searching for a spring. I found a usable substitute in a discarded cigarette lighter (who else would pick one up off the road to scavenge a spring? Sometimes I worry my poor wife.) Hey, parts is parts. And they're where you find them.

There was a time when I fully disassembled any gun that came into my possession. Its how I discovered the art of losing parts! Its also how I discovered the expedient of disassembly inside a large plastic bag! It really does work. You may not know how to put the stupid gun back together, but you've at least got all the parts!

 

[Hondo44]

Help me out on the "easy to find" part of all this!
On the triple lock that I didn't know I still had the spring, I went searching for a spring. I found a usable substitute in a discarded cigarette lighter (who else would pick one up off the road to scavenge a spring? Sometimes I worry my poor wife.) Hey, parts is parts. And they're where you find them.

I just got a triple lock with the pin stuck in the hole with no spring behind it, but a spring and very short pin stuck on top of it! The short pin and spring didn't work well so I removed them, drilled out the old pin stuck in the hole (that was fun! Any drilling out of the pin or drilling the crane requires a carbide bit), and replaced the spring with a Ruger single action cylinder hand (pawl) spring that fits perfectly in the hole and has the right tension. I made a new pin from an old dremel tool bit shank. It should be 1/2" in length.

 

[handejector]

The yoke detents I have miked are .100 to .101.
I have some common box nails (prob a 6d) that mike .098........
Check common screw shanks and nails for your plunger material. It won't matter if it is soft since there is not 8 oz of pressure on it.
Chuck it in your drill, round both ends with file.
Polish with cloth or paper.
The one I just checked is .561 long, but they vary slightly.

Spring removal tool-
Paper clip.
Open it.
Bend a 90 near the end.
Cut with dykes/pliers very close to the long shank.
The slight hook left on the end pulls them fine.

 

[handejector]

I just got a triple lock with the pin stuck in the hole with no spring behind it, but a spring and very short pin stuck on top of it! The short pin and spring didn't work well so I removed them, drilled out the old pin stuck in the hole

I've never had to drill one out.
I have spent 4 or 5 days removing one, alternating between soaking in acetone and various oils- back and forth. Tap gently on the pin with a punch when switching. Blow with high pressure.
After all this, grip the yoke firmly in a padded clamp or vise grips. Then, slam the clamp against a heavy block, obviously with the plunger hole pointed down. Have the block on a large spread towel to catch the pin. Make sure the towel belongs to you, or not, depending on how brave you really are.

 

[Hondo44]

I've never had to drill one out.
I have spent 4 or 5 days removing one, alternating between soaking in acetone and various oils- back and forth. Tap gently on the pin with a punch when switching. Blow with high pressure.
After all this, grip the yoke firmly in a padded clamp or vise grips. Then, slam the clamp against a heavy block, obviously with the plunger hole pointed down. Have the block on a large spread towel to catch the pin. Make sure the towel belongs to you, or not, depending on how brave you really are.

Tried that 1st but w/o success although it's a good method that has worked in the past.

 

[handejector]

I'm amazed the drill cut it instead of just spinning it!

 

[Hondo44]

The reason it wouldn't drop out is because it was rusted in place. It was most likely in there when the gun was reblued. When the bit was almost completely thru, it broke loose and spun, then came out on the drill bit! Very sensitive operation. The best thing about carbide bits is that if one breaks, and they do, you can shatter it with a punch, dump the pieces out and continue with a new bit.

Obviously a reblue and not a factory reblue. Just not a turn-of-the-century 'looking glass' polish, but not a bad job either. No rounded corners and the barrel markings are clear, just don't show in pics. The hammer and trigger pins are slightly less rounded but not flattened, the logo is a little faint but not near as bad as it looks in these quick pictures. And even the side plate edges are crisp and sharp. Third lock was blued instead of being case colored; a no-no as shown in the pics. But I since stripped the blue from it and the front lock latch sticking out of the front of the shroud. Besides the cylinder detent repair the old ejector spring was binding but a new M 29 spring cured that. Came with 'goodyear' grips but left those on the sellers table; couldn't bear to hold the gun with those on it. Serial number 2702 and all matching. Gold tipped factory, I believe, front blade since it matches my other one except for the gold. Very tight with a breaking glass let off and old world silky smooth action. I knew I wanted it but I already have one TL Target and didn't want to over pay for what is only a shooter. But he took my $700 offer and the next thing I knew, I was home taking it apart.

 

[fungunnin]

I have held that gun and it is the original factory finish.....

As you can clearly see the barrel and trigger are still on the gun! Clear proof that this gun was NOT refinished!!

My cousin three times removed on my mother's side once took a tour of the smith factory and he looked at this gun and HE swears up and down on his great aunt Sofie's grave that this gun still has the factory finish.

The experts on the Glock talk forum all have confirmed that this is gen-u-ine original so I all of you guys need to spend some time talking to people who know before you make comments ..... especially when asked to make comments!!

That is all ...

 

[SDH]

Thanks Lee & Jim,
I just made and installed a plunger and spring in my old .44!

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks Lee & Jim,
I just made and installed a plunger and spring in my old .44!

Bravo! Very rewarding to not only have it fixed but to do it yourself.
Now that gun is twice as much fun to own and shoot.

 

[Hondo44]

I have held that gun and it is the original factory finish.....

As you can clearly see the barrel and trigger are still on the gun! Clear proof that this gun was NOT refinished!!

My cousin three times removed on my mother's side once took a tour of the smith factory and he looked at this gun and HE swears up and down on his great aunt Sofie's grave that this gun still has the factory finish.

The experts on the Glock talk forum all have confirmed that this is gen-u-ine original so I all of you guys need to spend some time talking to people who know before you make comments ..... especially when asked to make comments!!

That is all ...[/QUOTE]

LOL! fungunnin you are true to your alias! "My cousin three times removed on my mother's side..." Amazingly small world isn't it??
Man alive, I could probably get 4 or 5 thousand for it, huh?

Well you made my night, thx!

 

[depicts]

Thanks for everyone who added to this thread.

It's this kind of information that has been shared here for years that has taught me most of what I know about S&W. I can see a person asking... "What do you think", but not to get resentful after asking, especially with you guys on this board. Some of you have broken my heart at times telling me the truth about one or another of my guns, but where else can you learn this stuff, at this level?

Thanks to all of you.

Bill 2018

 

[rburg]

And the correct response to the above post is:

"Can you handle the truth?"



Other suggestions:

A poster above suggested bending a paperclip to extract a balky spring. I had suggested a cheap fish hook. I have one (someplace) that I just straightened with 2 pairs of needle nose pliers. If it doesn't work the first try, I soak it in Liquid Wrench (a fairly good penetrating oil.)

Another suggestion for getting a stuck plunger out is to use an ultra sonic cleaner. I've got one they were going to pitch out at work. Free is good. But these days everything is made in China, and China incorporated is called "harbor freight". They sell them so cheaply there's no excuse for anyone not getting one. I'd always thought you should use something like 409 cleaner, or Mr. Clean and water as the solvent. But I've recently read where folks use kerosene. ATF (doesn't matter if its Ford or Chevy brands) will also penetrate any corrosion or gum built up over decades. The vibrations do the work. You sit by the fire and wait.

I kind of wonder if old GI powder solvent would create a fire hazard. If not, it sure would lift any burned powder residue.

 

[Hondo44]

And the correct response to the above post is:
Another suggestion for getting a stuck plunger out is to use an ultra sonic cleaner. I've got one they were going to pitch out at work. Free is good. But these days everything is made in China, and China incorporated is called "harbor freight". They sell them so cheaply there's no excuse for anyone not getting one. I'd always thought you should use something like 409 cleaner, or Mr. Clean and water as the solvent. But I've recently read where folks use kerosene. ATF (doesn't matter if its Ford or Chevy brands) will also penetrate any corrosion or gum built up over decades. The vibrations do the work. You sit by the fire and wait.

Hey, that's a great idea! I don't know if it would have worked on the one I drilled out. It was jammed in pretty good, the perpetrator who put it in without a spring behind it had worked on evidenced by the dents and scratches on the end of the plunger pin. But I sure would have tried that 1st had I known your idea and it just might have saved me a bunch of time and hassle.
Thanks for that great suggestion.