N-frame but what is it? What's it worth?

[wheelgun610]

If the barrel was replaced, why would it be stamped with the same serial no as the frame and cylinder?

Here's why.... Once upon a time, when the factory replaced a barrel, they numbered the barrel to the frame. Sometimes, but not always, there was a diamond stamped on the barrel flat as well to signify a replaced part.

As has been mentioned, the 'knob' on the ejector rod isn't the correct style for a non-shrouded barrel of that vintage. That style of knob wasn't seen on 2nd Models until after the arrival of the Model of 1926; aka: 3rd Model .44.

Mark

 

[handejector]

The markings weren't restamped, in my opin. The logo was not applied with a punch struck with a hammer. It was applied with a roll die. So, remarking it would be a very tricky business.
The small, rounded end of the rebound stud is easily flattened some in buffing. New guns were buffed without that stud in place. Obviously, they did not always remove it to refinish a gun. Just because the end of that pin is a little flattened we don't have to assume the logo would be ground off- the pin is a small surface that was the highest point on that side. It was easily flattened when the buffer hit it.

As DC said, if the barrel is a new replacement, it had never been buffed before, so I would expect the markings to be clear.

 

[DCWilson]

In support of the renumbering of replacement barrels, I will report that I recently acquired a .22/32 revolver that was originally shipped in 1921 with a six-inch barrel, which was the only length available. It now has both a four inch barrel and a recessed cylinder, neither of which was available at the time of original shipping. Barrel and cylinder are both numbered with the frame number of the gun, and the frame is stamped with a star and 11.46 factory rework date.

The conclusion? An original .22/32 HFT target was factory modified to the specs of a prewar Kit Gun, and the new parts were numbered to the existing and unmodified frame. I know the barrel is not simply a shortened original barrel because (1) roll markings are centered, and (2) the ejector rod knob cutout is for the 1930s-profile knob, not the earlier one.

 

[handejector]

I know the barrel is not simply a shortened original barrel because (1) roll markings are centered, and (2) the ejector rod knob cutout is for the 1930s-profile knob, not the earlier one.

(3) ....not to mention the FORGED front sight base on the newer, SHORTER barrel.....

 

[handejector]

Here are pics of the proper ejector rod with the proper two step barrel cut and the round headed pins.

Note also that early trigger studs were round headed. The factory polished them flat BEFORE they started polishing rebound studs. The round headed trigger stud could sometimes mark the cyl.

edited to fix a stupid mistake

 

[DCWilson]

(3) ....not to mention the FORGED front sight base on the newer, SHORTER barrel.....

Yes, that too.

On the left-side logo question for the OP's revolver: I stand corrected on the hammer-and-stamp remarking, but would it have been difficult to put the frame in the proper cradle and rollmark it again?

I wouldn't think this is something anybody at the factory would try unless an earlier logo had been completely removed.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Here are pics of the proper ejector rod with the proper two step barrel cut and the round headed pins.

Note also that early hammer studs were round headed. The factory polished them flat BEFORE they started polishing rebound studs. The round headed hammer stud could sometimes mark the cyl.

Lee,
you are saying hammer stud here, but you are actually talking about the trigger stud aren't you, since you mentioned it hitting the cylinder? I just want to get all this great info/facts straight while learning here.

 

[CQB27]

Very informative thread. I regret that there were occasional eruptions of sarcasm or irritation on both sides of the question, because my sense is that everybody here wanted to get a correct answer. The problem to my eyes is that the gun showed something for everybody -- a mix of high-impact, low-impact and no-impact polishing before it was renickeled (or in the case of the barrel, probably nickeled for the first time) in 1931.

The only footnote I would add to the conversation is a possibility I did not see mentioned. I agree that the left side of the frame was polished down quite a bit, which is why the head of the rebound spring pin went flat. But I think the crisp logo on that side of the gun may be a restrike. If the gun was at the factory for work, and if the shallow original logo was completely polished off when deep pitting and scratching were addressed, how difficult would it have been for the gunsmith to take a logo punch off the shelf and replace what had been removed before the gun went into the plating tank?

And finally, thinking about this as a collector, I have to say there is a world of difference between a 1931 refinish and a more recent refinish. An old refinish is part of a gun's long and respected history. I have a 1911 TL that got a factory refinish in the mid-1920s. In light of its subsequent honorable treatment and careful maintenance, I don't think that return trip to the factory hurt its collector value nearly as much as a return in the '60s or '70s might have.

I have read other threads to which The Rabbi contributed. He's a bright guy with a lot of knowledge, and I learned some good stuff from a thread he was in on a different forum. I am not about to impute motives to him or let myself believe that I know what he really wanted to hear when he asked about this gun. He happened to luck into a revolver whose features could be variously interpreted, and they were. It's his call if he wants to sell it -- but whether he does or not, it remains an interesting revolver in its own right.

Excellent response.......conpletely saves this thread IMHO.
Well done DCWilson, hat's off to you Sir.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

"N-frame but what is it? What's it worth?
This is obviously an early N-frame in nickel. Timing is perfect. Bore is perfect. Action is smooth. Lock up is excellent. It is chambered in .44spc. It appears to have been drilled for a lanyard loop and filled in. Lanyard loop appears to have been factory. All numbers matching. S/N 1680X
Any information would be appreciated. "


David,

I believe that it is admirable for you take stand for the OP with your well spoken and thoughtful words, in a thread that may appear to have the "pile on" mentality, but- as noted by a direct copy of the original post above, he did ask What's it worth and, stated that any information would be appreciated.

I believe that, that is all anyone is trying to do here, not only for the OP, but also for anyone who is following along, so that all may gain knowlege from this thread.

It is almost impossible to give an opinion on value for the gun without first clearing up its status as original or re-finished.

 

[kennyb]

some excellent information in this thread

 

[Hammerless-12]

interesting thread

First off Id like to thank the Rabbi for getting this thread started. Even though some feeling may be somewhat hurt, I am finding this very interesting and I personally am learning a great deal from all of this. I just purchased a model 41 at a gun show. I spent the better part of 2 hours personally looking it over. It is a very nice gun from the late 1970's. I purchased the gun and the first shooting buddy I showed it to, who is a hugh collector, informed me that it had been reblued. I, to this day do not totally believe him and am getting S&W to help me out. This is not the sort of thing any of us want to hear. Im no excpert, but the facts do tell a tale. This revolver has a heck of a tale to tell. Thanks for all the input as I always learn from this sort of thread.

 

[handejector]

but would it have been difficult to put the frame in the proper cradle and rollmark it again?

analogy:
write one eight letter word in your normal handwriting. Without moving yourself, or the paper, or anything, write exactly over that word again.

That is a weak analogy, but it shows you how bad the logo will look if ANYTHING is off by one or two thousandths.

Now, add up the variables:
--Wear on the jig holding the frame or sideplate (after another thousand guns??, 10,000 guns??, 500,000 guns??)
OR
--DIFFERENT jig????
--Wear on the roll die itself
OR
--DIFFERENT die??
--Wear on bearings for the roll die axle
--Wear on the stops/locators for the roll die
--Wear on gears or cylinders that move the die
--different pressure on the die
--Was the die hot or cold when a logo was struck? (they get hot from the pressure)
--winter or summer? (hot or cold in the plant)

Probably some other variables I did not think of.
Add all the variables up at half a thousandth for some and a full thousandth for the rest. (what if one variable has already changed by two or three thou???)
Can you see how easy it will be to make a double stamp that looks like hell?


Here is a factory roll die with FOUR logos on it.
Are they all ABSOLUTELY identical?
WHICH one did you use on that gun five years ago?

Look at the differences in the diamond on the left and right of this particular logo.
I would expect minor differences in each logo on this die.

 

[Alk8944]

I have to disagree with a lot you say here.

"What you say about the model is almost correct. After 1950 this model became known as the Model 1950 .44 Military. When it was manufactured, ca. 1916, this designation did not exist."
Actually, S&W catalogged the 44's as the "44 Military" from day one, starting with the Triple Lock in the 07-08 catalog and continuing thru all or most catalogs.

Lee, I'll give you this, but to my recollection it wasn't too commonly used, and I don't recall McHenry & Roper using the term.
_____________________
"The flat plug in the butt is another indication of factory work as this would have been either a lanyard loop or a domed plug. If a loop it would have been removed, if the domed plug these were polished flat as they are in a blind hole, tight, and cannot be removed once installed."
The only positively plugged swivel holes I am aware of is on post WW II 38 M&P (Victory) frames. It MAY have been done on one or two 1917's heavily modified- like with target sights.

You're going to have to revise your thinking on this. I have seen several, and owned one, SN 21159, that had the domed solid plug. It was a 5". I recall a second 5" specifically with the solid plug that I wish I had bought. I have seen one or two more at shows over the years, but it has been quite a while.
_________________________
"Other indications of a factory re-finish are the still color case-hardened and not plated hammer and trigger, as well as the blue extractor."
I've seen a lot of after-market jobs that did not plate the parts that shouldn't be.

True, but until fairly recent times and competent shops like Ford's this wasn't too common except factory work.
______________________________
"Originally S&W guns are polished after all stamps and roll marks are applied."
That is fairly safe to safe for pre-war guns, but not seldom true from the WW II production onward. Look at the raised logos on Transition guns.

We were speaking of a specific time period, and the comment is accurate for the time period being discussed.
___________________________
"The frame is a left-over Model 1917 frame manufactured in ca. 1916 based on the serial number."
I agree that is a leftover 1917 frame, but no 1917 frames existed before 1917.
So, the gun is not from 1916. I have a 1916 44-2nd Model- one of the earliest made, and it is in the 14,600 range. There are Triple Locks with higher numbers. Not many 44-2nds got out before 1919-1920. The factory was buried by war production from Aug, 1914 Thru Sept, 1916 (455's). The Second Model was first produced in Jan, 1915, but the British 455's occupied most factory production till late 1916. Then, they began looking at 1917 production, and by late 1917, they were totally focused on 1917 production. The Gov't thought they were still too slow, and seized the factory in Sept, 1918. They did not return control till Jan, 1919, and it seems S&W was very slow in 1919 about getting back to civilian production.
The point of all this is to say that you won't see many N frames that were produced from later 1914 thru much of 1919 EXCEPT for 455's and 1917's.
I believe the OP's gun will have a ship date of 1920 or possibly 1919.

True to a point. Since the Model 1917 is nothing more than a slightly modified .455 MK II, as were the 2nd Model .44 HE this is a matter of semantics. So far as ship date, this will be a moot point until Roy returns a letter. That notwithstanding, the serial number in the 16,000 range, per the list in SCSW, can fall anywhere from 1916-1920.
_________________________
After WW I, the factory built many 44-2nd's on leftover 1917 frames. If you think about it, there was nothing else to build. The 455 contracts were long since done, and the 1917 contracts were done. Before the war nothing but 44 Sp's had been built in any quantity. After the war, they added the 1917 to the catalog, but they were lousy sellers, probably because SURPLUS 1917's were available- CHEAP.
So, we have noted for years that most 44-2nd's from the 20's have a butt swivel, and often show an eagle head in the yoke cut. I have never seen a 44-2nd with what I thought was a factory plugged swivel hole- they had PLENTY of leftover swivels to plug them with!

Swivel hole plug, see above.

This gun has been gone for ca. 30 years and I never had pictures of it. I can't say for sure about the Eagle in the Yoke cut, but it did have the Eagle over S** just like the military guns, stamped on the barrel flat, and my recollection is it also had this stamp on the frame at the top of the left recoil shield. Won't swear to this though.

What I can say for sure is I have a commercial 1917 from the mid-1930s, around the time of the Brazilian contract. This gun has the Eagle/S34 stamp on the barrel flat. My impression for many years was that the Eagle stamp was a military inspection stamp. I can accept, with difficulty, that a 1935 or so 1917 had a surplus barrel from the WW I contracts, but how can it be explained that it was also on a 2nd Model .44 HE barrel? Does the Eagle have another meaning to S&W not related to the military contracts?

What happened to my 5" Second Model .44 HE is a sad, frustrating story. In 1974 I attended the S&W Armorers School for my department. At the time they did not have a program for automatics, just revolvers, and we used Model 39s. As a result I was placed on the production floor working with the Automatic Cestion Lead-man, whose name I wish I recalled. I spent two weeks doing range repairs on guns that didn't pass test firing.

While there I took a total of 10 guns, most mine and some department guns, to have re-finished. One was the .44 HE that was about 85% but thinning. It was early enough to have the rounded top strap and narrow "U" rear sight. When the, apparently, apprentice it was given to to polish he filed off the dome of the butt plug leaving a broad notch across the butt. He also polished the top of the frame flat like the later guns, and doing so reduced the rear sight depth by about 50%, basically leaving it with no rear sight! Overall quite disappointing, and for all practical purposes destroyed the utility of the gun. I sold it to a dealer at a show in SLC a few years later because I couldn't bear to look at it. This was quite a few years before SCSW and the information that the 5" guns are considered rare!

 

[handejector]

Actually, S&W catalogged the 44's as the "44 Military" from day one, starting with the Triple Lock in the 07-08 catalog and continuing thru all or most catalogs.

Lee, I'll give you this, but to my recollection it wasn't too commonly used, and I don't recall McHenry & Roper using the term.
________________

The pics below are catalogs.
Left to right:

1. 1907-08 ("The Revolver" catalog) The Triple Lock with non medallion grips.
2. 1913 (3 Pirates catalog)- Notice they did not update the Triple Lock pic. It still shows non medallions.
3. 1917-1919 (Catalog D) 44-2nd with recessed Gold medallion grips. The only catalog that shows gold medallion grips on an N frame.
4. 1921-1925 (Catalogs D2, D3, and D4) All have basically the same pic with non medallion grips.
5. 1931 (75th Anniversary catalog) Silver grip medallions appear.

 

[handejector]

In the 1941 catalog, when they first cataloged the Model 1926, they even combined the 'Military' designation with that Model name:

 

[handejector]

The only positively plugged swivel holes I am aware of is on post WW II 38 M&P (Victory) frames. It MAY have been done on one or two 1917's heavily modified- like with target sights.

You're going to have to revise your thinking on this. I have seen several, and owned one, SN 21159, that had the domed solid plug. It was a 5". I recall a second 5" specifically with the solid plug that I wish I had bought. I have seen one or two more at shows over the years, but it has been quite a while.

I'm going to wait a while on that revision. I have never seen one of your domed plugs. Perhaps it was an aftermarket item available for people who wanted to remove them. I have never heard of one. Show me something that links it to the factory. I've never seen a reference to one.
___________________________

______________________________
"Originally S&W guns are polished after all stamps and roll marks are applied."
That is fairly safe to safe for pre-war guns, but not seldom true from the WW II production onward. Look at the raised logos on Transition guns. (edit- I really screwed this up. It should read:
That is fairly safe to say for pre-war guns, but [(delete)>not] seldom true from the WW II production onward. Look at the raised logos on Transition guns.
We were speaking of a specific time period, and the comment is accurate for the time period being discussed.
This thread has discussed so much, you better define that period then. Otherwise someone reads that and says "Uh-oh, my logo is raised so my gun is faked".
By the 30's, logos are raised.

__________________________________
This gun has been gone for ca. 30 years and I never had pictures of it. I can't say for sure about the Eagle in the Yoke cut, but it did have the Eagle over S** just like the military guns, stamped on the barrel flat, and my recollection is it also had this stamp on the frame at the top of the left recoil shield. Won't swear to this though.
Sorry, NO offense intended, but I think you are remembering it wrong. Below is a pic of the eagle head in a 44-2nd yoke cut from the 17,000 range. I have seen it in many 44-2nd's.
I've never seen or heard of a 44 barrel with an eagle head.
I REALLY doubt it had the eagle head on the frame corner. For years, I've seen people say on this board that some 1917's had an eagle head on that frame corner- SOMEONE PLEASE SHOW A PIC OF ONE!
I've never seen it. I've never seen a pic of it. I've seen the GHS initials and flaming bombs and nothing else on that frame corner. I just don't think a 44 had any mark on that frame corner.

What I can say for sure is I have a commercial 1917 from the mid-1930s, around the time of the Brazilian contract. This gun has the Eagle/S34 stamp on the barrel flat. My impression for many years was that the Eagle stamp was a military inspection stamp. I can accept, with difficulty, that a 1935 or so 1917 had a surplus barrel from the WW I contracts, but how can it be explained that it was also on a 2nd Model .44 HE barrel? Does the Eagle have another meaning to S&W not related to the military contracts?
The eagle is a Springfield inspector's stamp and nothing else.
On the 44 barrel with the eagle, see above.
___________________________

 

[bettis1]

The eagle is a Springfield inspector's stamp and nothing else.

___________________________

Lee,

Does the same thing hold if it's a "penguin"?

Bob

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Lee,

or anyone who knows, did the Second Model have the cylinder hold open assist that was on TL's? It looks like it in the pic above, or is that detent for something else?

 

[2152hq]

Re:roll dies & impressions,,
I worked with both commercially made and hand cut roll dies (and stamps) while working for a restoration shop. They were used for the bbl address on shotgun ribs, address on rifle bbls, slide & frame markings, etc.

The rolling set up was Bridgeport converted to hold the die in a heavy yoke axle setup in the spindle locked into position so it could not rotate. Ours had 1"dia axles on the roll dies.
The downward preassure was applied by hand on the quill and experience was the judge. The table had the part jigged into position and used to run it under the die.

You get one shot at it when applying it. It takes remarkably little precieved downward pressure on even a simple setup to apply the mark. But uniformity and a smooth run thru are absolutely necessary to end up with a mark that looks even.

One trick quickly learned is that you need considerably less preassure at the very start and end of the impression than in between. There is less die in contact with the part at the start (and end).
Even pressure will make for a deeper start and end to the image. That is compounded by the shape of the image. A barrel address for example needs way less start pressure than say a wider logo type impression.

Many factory impressions attack that problem by incorporating a 'foot' or lead-in mark on the image before and at the end of it.

More common on the thin one and two line barrel address, these are the small dashes or other bracketing marks on either end of the mark. An initial imprint by that mark not only helps alignment, but avoids the first few letters being the initial thing to imprint,,and deeper than the rest of the run. Same at the end of the roll.

Re-rolling the mark just applied is something that is seldom done with sucess,,very seldom.
This is with the part still locked into whatever jig you have made up and the die still in the same allignment with that work.

Lifting the die (pressure),,backing up the work and then trying to match the die edges back into their exact position in the existing mark just done would seem like a somewhat easily do-able procedure. But as Lee mentions,,be a .000" or so off,,run it through again,,and you end up with a terrible looking print.
Even working with magnification, trying to reposition the die is a futile effort.

Trying to increase the rolling preassure just a bit to compensate and perhaps mesh the old and new print together doesn't work either.

Re-rolling a mark with a die that it wasn't originally marked with is near impossible (to get a perfect print). The differences in the die and the setup just won't allow it in most every case.

Leaving the die engaged at the end of the roll and then trying to back it up while still touching the work surface in an attempt to re-roll is would seem to be a path towards maintaining a perfect engagement of the two images. But that will most certainly result in a double image,,on the roll back.
The tinyest amount of play in the die axle, or any where in the system will give you a problem.

Plus.. the die will leave a definate forward advance imprint that is different than running the die in the other direction if you try to do that procedure in the same rolling.
The smaller diameter the roll (and deeper the impression), the worse that feature is magnified if you try to back it up in the work and re-roll.

Just my experience with them. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Timb1]

Gun 4 Fun, Yes some of the Second Models did have the cylinder hold open assist but I think it was drop some time in the production. I am sure someone will have the date it was dropped.

Tim.