Need a bunch of help ***New Pictures Posted***

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younggun22

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Doing a little detective work for a friend of mine. I am familiar with the hand ejectors but these tip ups aren't in my wheelhouse.

First question: what model am I looking at? It appears to be chambered for a .32 or .38 variant of some kind. The last patent date on the cylinder is 1860.

Does it have any value?

Thanks.
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What is the barrel length? It appears to be a 6" barreled Model 2 Army. The caliber would be .32 rim fire and value depends mostly on condition and function.

Condition appears to be pretty good so it probably depends on function. The barrel hinge was probably the weakest link with the tip up guns and if that is good with little to no side play, then that would be a big plus. Next would be whether the hammer and trigger function as designed. If the cylinder rotates when cocked and stays in position and the hammer falls when the trigger is pulled then function would appear to be good as well.

Gun prices vary around the country but typically I see these asking anywhere from $700 to about $1,500 in good condition and function.
 
These are important guns for S&W. First revolver capable of really hurting an assailant or enemy Civil War soldier. Tens of thousands were carried during the Civil War. Problem is that there is virtually no 32 long rimfire ammunition around to shoot in these old tip-ups. It is sad, since the condition of that Model 2 certainly looks like it would shoot well. I am pretty sure that the gun has been gone over with cold bluing. It has that mottled appearance and original bluing would have been quite glossy in appearance.
 
younggun22 said:
It's serial number 10.


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Click to expand...

There appears to be 3 pins in the top-strap, so it cannot have a serial number 10. The serial number is only found on the butt-frame on the bottom and on the inside of the right stock. The company used what they called assembly numbers for this model and stamped them on the inside of the butt-frame under the left stock, on the cylinder and on the barrel assembly just ahead of the cylinder. Those were either letters or numbers. The 3 pin Model 2 started with serial number somewhere around 3,000.
 
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glowe said:
There appears to be 3 pins in the top-strap, so it cannot have a serial number 10. The serial number is only found on the butt-frame on the bottom and on the inside of the right stock. The company used what they called assembly numbers for this model and stamped them on the inside of the butt-frame under the left stock, on the cylinder and on the barrel assembly just ahead of the cylinder. Those were either letters or numbers. The 3 pin Model 2 started with serial number somewhere around 3,000.
Click to expand...



The 10 is found on the cylinder face and on the bottom of the butt so it must be an assembly number.

I appreciate all the information and I am enjoying learning about a new realm of the S&W world.


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My only guess is that the original number was removed on the butt and when some later owner found the "10" on the cylinder, they added the same number on the butt thinking it was the serial number?? Is there a number stamped inside the right stock?
 
This gun has a dubious history and been the subject of scrutiny for some years. It's NOT serial number 10. It's a 3 pin gun - which type depends on how much info the "owner" will release to us. Questions on it have popped up off and on for sometime and it's "owner' is always reluctant to provide details or allow examination by experts. I believe Gary's comment above may be right on the money, but whether the "10" was added to fool collectors, or for some other reason, I don't know. The gun is tainted as far as knowledgable Model 2 collectors are concerned, until full examination has been made public. If the poster is really looking for info for his "friend" he should come forward will full close up photos of ALL parts of the gun, and we will be able to decipher the mystery. Ed.
 
Need a bunch of help

Well Ed, I am in fact doing some research for a "friend" of mine who owns the piece and asked me about it. So I thought I would come and ask the experts. These are my intentions and I don't appreciate you implying something else.

I saw it this afternoon when I went over to take a look at something else. Here are the rest of the pictures that I took. Please let me know what else you would like to see and I can get more pictures from my "friend" the current "owner"

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Just for comparison, here is a picture of my 2 pin model #2 old army (with known original history) serial #2015, and a picture of my 3 pin refinished #2 old army serial #7361. The "1" stamp looks close to the 10 serial numbered revolvers, and the serial number placement on the butt is similar as well,but the "1" stamp is just different enough to raise some speculation? I'm sure all the stamps must have been a little different as they were all made by hand,and probably touched up as needed when dull. Interesting...could someone have added the 3rd pin at some time?What would be the reason someone would do that? I'm asking,not insinuating anything..:)
 

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Interesting that the pictures we need are not shown. I agree with Ed 100%. I don't like the serial number, seems someone who knew nothing about Number 2's tried to make an instant collectible. Maybe your "friend" can come on an post more information.
 
younggun22 - you may not be aware, but many fake, fraudulent, and outright photographically altered guns show up on this Forum, so please don't take comments personally. The gun is, as Ed states, totally wrong and cannot be legtimized with the features shown. Serial number 10 would have been manufactured in 1861, over a year before the 3 pin design was introduced. The third pin limits the upward movement of the top frame cylinder stop. If you pull up on the rear of the stop where the rear sight slot is, it will only travel up a short distance. Before that, clothing, holsters, other objects could literally break the cylinder stop if pulled up with force. At the very least, it could bend the metal or break the return spring, stopping the gun from functioning.

What would be very helpful are pictures of the inside of the right stock, the rear of the barrel frame around the cylinder pivot hole, the front of the cylinder and the butt-frame under the left stock. This might help to identify how the number on the butt came to be.
 
glowe said:
younggun22 - you may not be aware, but many fake, fraudulent, and outright photographically altered guns show up on this Forum, so please don't take comments personally. The gun is, as Ed states, totally wrong and cannot be legtimized with the features shown. Serial number 10 would have been manufactured in 1861, over a year before the 3 pin.

What would be very helpful are pictures of the inside of the right stock, the rear of the barrel frame around the cylinder pivot hole, the front of the cylinder and the butt-frame under the left stock. This might help to identify how the number on the butt came to be.
Click to expand...


I really appreciate the history as I am not at all familiar with these and can understand the doubt.

As I said earlier I am happy to provide any pictures needed to figure out what this is.
 
Is it at all possible the 3rd pin was added as an "upgrade",especially if the latch was a known issue to snag? I know of many a '63 Vette split windows that were converted to single back glass, in the day. Although functionally better, it damaged the value as an original car. But the owners didn't care at the time.
 
I haven't seen anyone specify what pics are required. We've seen a couple different angles. I'd be interested in seeing this one run to ground and now seems to be an opportunity.

ETA: Waitaminnit - Glowe outlines it in post 18. I bet OP will be back shortly with the requested pics.
 
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I agree with glowe as I believe the number '10' has been added to the revolver butt. The serial numbers on the early #2's are small (~1/16" high) and end approximately 1/8" from the toe. This specimen doesn't display either of these features. The number on the inside of the right stock should verify the correct serial number.
 
younggun22, Sorry if I ruffled your feathers - not my intent. You may have stepped into a controversy unknowingly. This "No. 10" Model 2 army has changed hands in the past, I believe, with uninformed buyers getting what they thought was a legitimate serial # 10. The gun has been known to serious students for many years, as suspect. If you check Ron Curtis's web page for Model 2 Armies, there is a dissertation on the multiple types of Model 2 engineering changes, with photos showing how to identify these changes and how they are determined. I don't have a quick way of posting the link where I am now, perhaps another Forum member can provide it. Photos of your friend's gun following the Curtis info. will give us what we need to fully estimate the guns's production point in the life of the Model 2s. The correct serial number appears in only two places on a Model 2. On the back of the right grip and on the center of the butt on 3 pin guns. Very early production ( Ser. #s 1, 2,5,6, & 7 have the serial number at the heel of the butt, stamped 90 degrees off the centerline of the bore. A good start would be to post clear photos of the assembly code stamps on # 10 and where they are found. None of your above photos show them. Ed.
 
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I find this all very interesting and will get as much of the requested in formation as soon as possible.

I am determined to get to the bottom of it now!


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younggun22 said:
I find this all very interesting and will get as much of the requested in formation as soon as possible . . .
Click to expand...

I ran across the following information in Ron Curtis's database of Model 2 revolvers.

#10 - - 6" - - Refinished - - Re numbered Ch 5 Modified SWCA Journal vol 33#2 summer 1999.

Ron's website can be accessed here: Smith and Wesson Model 2 Army Revolver
 
I went ahead and took the photo of the butt of this model 2, with the dubious SN of 10, and a pic posted by breakaway500.

Note, as Mike said, the position of the numbers is not right for a 2 digit gun. The "10" is very much indented, so the point where when I duplicate the approx. spacing, a 6 digit SN fits. Note on the breakaway500 butt, there is room for 1 more digit.

The red lines are my attempt (not great) at showing how far in the "1" is for the "10". The blue lines are where the "10" would be, using the spacing and application method shown on the breakaway500 revolver. Of course, the red numbers to SN "10" are my additions to show how far in "10" really is. I used a font size similar to the "10" to keep everything scale. So basically, if the SN 10 gun were correct, among everything else wrong with it, I would expect the "10" to lead off where the added red "3" is that I placed, not where it is currently.

The font is larger for "10" as others have said, and could even be the wrong font style for these to boot, but I would need to a loop to be sure of that.

This is called boosting, and is more common on military issue guns than anything else, where an additional mark can mean a big difference.

SampW%20model%202%20fake%20SN_zpstyytxktc.jpg
 
I am horrible with the search features but I know sometime in the past 10 years there was a discussion on this gun in this forum. Ed is right in that the then owner played games in providing info / pictures then.


Dan
 
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